My target: To win back Ceredigion and return a group of Lib Dems to the Assembly

Jane Dodds, new Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats

Wales needs the Welsh Liberal Democrats back in the Assembly and back in Westminster.

If we can transform Welsh education and the life chances of our children and young people with just one Cabinet member – just imagine what more we could do with a large group holding the balance of power in the Assembly.

I just wanted to take this opportunity to pay tribute to Mark Williams who led our party during an incredibly difficult time for our party.

Not only did Ceredigion lose a fantastic representative and champion, but Westminster lost an incredibly talented, passionate, and authentic liberal voice.

I have set the Welsh Liberal Democrats a challenge; that we return a group of Welsh Liberal Democrats to the Assembly in 2021, and that we elect parliamentarians from Wales in 2022, including Mark Williams in Ceredigion.

Our challenges are to get across the reason for the Liberal Democrats in Wales; we need to train our members and candidates, grown our membership, win council elections and shape a distinctive liberal agenda for Wales and our party.


It will be an agenda that will be outward looking, tolerant, fair and green, not the narrow-minded, defensive and divisive agendas which are doing such harm in our communities.

Working with our staff and party officers in responding to feedback from members we will create a whole-Wales party which equips members to campaign in their communities, to get involved, to shape and share our message, and to grow their local membership.

Repeating what we’ve always done won’t be enough. We need to think differently and do differently if we want to change the outlook for our party.

I will work hard as the Leader to re-establish the Welsh Liberal Democrats as the radical, progressive force of Welsh politics.

And also to bring like-minded people together to build a movement and to create a liberal Wales.

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  1. Dafydd Thomas

    The GCSE A* to C pass rate in Wales has fallen to its lowest level since 2006. Yes the Lib Dem has certainly transformed Welsh education.

    • And that’s the Lib Dems fault – just fifteen months in is it?

      • Dafydd Thomas

        Gareth for goodness sake read the article, she is saying that the lib Dems have Transformed education in Wales with one minister!!

        • I make no claim to know how the Lib Dem claim have transformed education in Wales.

          But I think it’ll be a little bit unfair to blame this summer’s GCSE results on them, given the fact the exams were sat at the end of a two year qualification, barley 12 Months after Kirsty Williams joined the cabinet.

          Anything like this takes time, I remember Plaid members being very frustrated about the lack of economic improvement when they’re leader was in the Welsh Government, but I’m not going to say anymore as we could go majorly off topic here.

          • Dafydd Thomas

            I realise that your an apologist for the lib Dems, but they are claiming credit here for what objectively is a disaster, and it can’t be glossed over. Anyone with children will be concerned at this downturn in the educational attainments. Of course as Chris Franks says below there is a huge financial pressure. They are spending education money on health with unfunded sick and elderly immigrants from England. As Professor Holtham says they are bleeding education to spend on health when they should be doing the exact opposite.

            • “immigrants from England”

              I’m not even going to bother debating with you.

              • Dafydd Thomas

                Yes unfunded elderly and sick immigrants from England. As the Nuffield trust says underfunded by a minimum of £500,000,000.

            • The ugly face of nationalism. So if you think it’s OK not to treat ‘sick and elderly immigrants from England’. You’ll be happy if the NHS in England treat Welsh people living there the same way.

              • Dafydd Thomas

                Richard the money the Welsh government gets for health and education does not include for the ftreatment of the colonialist influx of elderly from England nor the influx of social cleansing to Wales of disabled and sick from English cities. The Welsh population is not older than the English population but the English population in Wales is much older than the Welsh population. We do not receive funding for these so we have to deprive the education budget to pay for the health of these. We do not send elderly to England nor socially cleanse our people to England. The state pensions and benefit payments of these immigrants from England are allocated to Welsh expenditure. This is blatant colonialism which is destroying our health service, education and economy.

              • CambroUiDunlainge

                Yes. The ugly face of nationalism… putting our own people first. Shame on us!

                • Dafydd Thomas

                  Indeed just as the English Labour Party and the English conservatives have said they want to control immigration for the benefit of the people of England. Nothing less for us, so we can have a good standard functioning health system and an education system which is not so much less funded than in England with a Welsh immigration policy for the needs of Wales rather than England.

              • Comparing the exchange of people between a country of three million people and a country of some fifty-five million is absurd. Even if the numbers moving were equal the impacts would be vastly different.

                But that’s not the case because there are far more English people retiring to Wales than there are Welsh people retiring to England.

                The 2011 Census told us that 35.8% of the over 65s in Wales had been born in England. In a number of areas a majority of pensioners were born in England.

                To then suggest that this does not impact adversely on the Welsh NHS and other services, and that other budgets – such as education – are not raided to maintain the NHS, is economic illiteracy.

                The truly ugly face of nationalism is England’s traditional attitude in believing that colonies exist to be exploited and put upon.

              • Dim cymhariaeth. Wales’s settler problem is not of its own making, unlike England’s immigration/overpopulation problem. It’s also a question of comparative numbers and the relative wealth of the two countries. Then there’s the language issue…

        • The Lib Dems transformed educational outcomes for the poorest children in Wales by investing £200m in the last Assembly through direct financial investment in schools, which has massively narrowed the attainment gap in Wales every year since the introduction of the Pupil Development Grant.

          Smaller class sizes? Government funding for part-time and postgraduate students, and an incredibly generous grant funding system for students?

  2. Sorry I still don’t get the point of the Dim Lebs. Talking of divisive policies are you going to drop your policy of lying and smearing in your election campaigns?

  3. Your party has received its just rewards! Compliant and complicit with the most damned government in history !

  4. Glad to hear it.
    Here’s hopping it can come true.
    I won’t make any comment about any AMs/MPs I’d like to see defeted but I would like to see a sizable Lib Dem group back in the Assembly.

  5. The Lib Dems have become irrelevant in Welsh politics and any attempt to resurrect the party is likely to fail. The party has for years been a right wing rump deriving their support from voters who anywhere else would be voting Tory. Mark Williams was a good constituency MP but to describe him as ‘incredibly talented’ is a gross exaggeration which reflects poorly on the judgment of the new leader of the party. In Ben Lake the new member for Ceredigion we have just as good a constituency MP but he has the added attraction of youth and vigour and years of service to offer the constituency. I predict that he will remain our MP for so long as Ceredigion sends a member to Westminster and that in time Mark Williams and the Lib Dems will fade into history.

  6. Dafydd Thomas – half the kids did their gcses a year early and will end up taking them again. Hence the passrate figure. Do you can comprehend this?

    With regards to the Lib Dems, any progressive should hope they make a comeback. Their 5 AMs did a decent job at hold the government to account (or as decent a job as tories and plaid anyway). Certainly better than the UKIP AMs to have replaced them!

    Considering how low the lib dems are, I was surprised at the high quality candidates they managed to put together

  7. With all the problems we face, from the environmental crisis to the economic dislocation of brexit, to the rise of politics of division and hate, nationalism is at best a diversion and at worst a divisive contributor. Good luck to Jane Dodds and the the return of progressive open minded tolerant liberalism in Wales.

    • There was a genuine Welsh Liberal tradition, represented most recently in Ceredigion by Geraint Howells. That Welsh Liberal tradition is dead. The modern, opportunistic Liberal Democrats are not the inheritors of that tradition,and so I’d welcome their demise.

  8. It’s great to see the Welsh Lib Dems back and ready for the fight ahead.

    Wales is poorer without a strong Lib Dem voice in the Assembly and Westminster. I’d be surprised to see anyone argue that the UKIP group elected last May are more effective at representing their communities or Wales in the Assembly.

    The ‘right wing rump’ others have referred to lifted the poorest out of income tax, invested more than £200m in the education of our most disadvantaged children, are taking forward an overhaul of student funding in Wales, and delivered safe staffing levels on our hospital wards. Doesn’t sound particularly right wing to me.

    Shame you need to get so personal, Thomas.

  9. Education spending levels under Kirsty Williams is putting schools under huge financial pressure.

  10. Talking of Mark Williams and the Lib Dems, interesting piece form “Liberal Democrat Voice” here talking about Mark Williams’ victory in Ceredigion here, showing the attitude of a student at Aberystwyth University to the Liberal Democrats at the time – “As a 1st year student in Aberystwyth, I was quickly recruited to making sure we make [the Liberal Democrat] majority bigger”. Considering he believes that “most people” “couldn’t find Cardiff on a map”, and that his *other* piece in the “Liberal Democrat Voice” is a masterclass in ‘failing to understand a country foreign to you, but being patronising and still knowing why they are wrong and what is best for them”, (including, amongst many other things, speaking Welsh is a “nationalist” thing to do), it is a pity if the Liberal Democrats play to this sort of thing to gain votes.

  11. It’s no secret that I’m a Plaid supporter and member. But given that, allow me to give you some genuine advice:

    Clean up your campaign. No lies, no misleading leaflets through the doors.

    One only needed to ask on the streets of Aberystwyth why people were turning from Lib Dems to Plaid in the last election, to realise that it was the dirty tactics that lost Ceredigion for Mark. It’s time politics in general cleaned up its act, but it is very disappointing to see such tactics from the Lib Dems. Unfortunately, it was not the first time. We still all remember the smears against Mike Parker. People are fed up with lying politicians. Lying campaigns do more damage in the long term to the candidate than the one they are attacking. And that’s why I don’t think Mark will succeed if he stands again next time.

  12. Good stuff – definitely want to see it come true. The Lib Dem’s demise in the Assembly has just let UKIP get in, like everyone said it would. I’d much rather have the Lib Dems as a party that cares about making Wales a better place to live. Kirsty is doing a lot of work to support rural schools, and hopefully will really get the chance to improve our education system – it’s only been a year!

  13. Benjiman L. Angwin

    I was a Lib Dem. I admire them for putting non-conformity, civil liberties, compromise and localism as a political nucleus rather than the populist group-think of socialists and right-wingers. I admire their tolerance, their judging policies issue by issue rather than all fits one economic ideologies, their bridge-building and unparalleled ability to empathise with individuals against conformity. They do not divide society along class lines, as both Labour and the Tories do, and they stand with poor people and rich people to find a balance between rather than declaring the rich or the poor to be evil along cultish sectarian lines, and I admire that.

    I left the Lib Dems this year and joined Plaid Cymru. I did do because Liberals’ unparalleled ability for individualist empathy has gradually become a blinding force in the decades since the great Jo Grimond, because they cannot see that Britishness is a form of populist conformity threatening the life an individual culture, Wales. and what I consider to be a moral truth: no nation should govern another.

    Wales is a nation; therefore it should be free. Labour’s ideology has built generation upon generation of hatred in this country, and a Liberal, centrist force can heal that if it put Wales first, and refutes British conformity.

    I have every faith the boundless compromise and humanism Liberals possess can dispense with British populist conformity anchored in socialism and Toryism, and accept a non-conformist Welsh freedom as a self-evident moral truth stemming from a higher truth: just as no individual should rule another with a socialist or neo-liberal ideology, no nation should rule another.

    Dyfal donc a dyrr y garreg. Hwyl.

    • I agree with you, that has been my experience.

      Ceredigion is best with Plaid Cymru. I do not think the Libdems could do any better there or in Carmarthenshire;
      However the LibDems belief that the union of Britain can actually be reformed?
      Britain can never be reformed and decentralised like most Libdems want it to be until the British centralisers i.e:- Tories and UKIP ideologies have been defeated in Wales/Cymru elections and elsewhere in England and Scotland.

      I suggest the best thing the LibDems can do is to concentrate your campaigns and target seats currently held by UKIP and the Tories (and Tory minded Labour members) especially where there is a strong unionist vote. Brecon and Radnor, and Monmouthshire which has in the past been held by LibDems and is in easy reach of winning a AM & MP in the next election.

      I am a Plaid Cymru supporter. However the LibDems is the only party that England has got worth supporting and voting for.
      So those of us with progressive policies should work together around the interests of Wales with the aim of Independence/sovereignty (devo-max).

      • Benjiman L. Angwin

        Yn union/exactly. I was with the Lib Dems in England for a time. They are great in England, and could be greater if they used one of their core principles, non-conformity, to fight against British conformity for an independent, liberal England.

        Ac yn wir, what I admire most about the Lib Dems is what they could be if they ditched British conformity and supported independence as an inalienable right of nations.

        I suggest reading, The Liberal Future (1952), by Jo Grimond.

  14. What relevance has the party got to Wales? Indeed what is the party about at all? I’ve never understood it. The lib dem box on the ballot paper to me seems like the catch-all option, for those who don’t have strong ideas or opinions – it makes it easy for someone to moan later on about whoever actually wins outright, knowing that they didn’t actually vote for them, while still being able to claim to have a remote interest in things. The coalition messed that thinking up a bit, because for the first time in living memory they actually did stuff and to people like me watching on it wasn’t very good and I’m happy to see that their now suffering for it. There will always be those who want a non-party like the lib dems, but they serve no real useful purpose in my opinion.

  15. The Lib Dems are actually the only party that wants to keep Wales in both the UK AND the EU. I suspect that’s the wish of quite a sizeable percantage of the people of Wales. So quite “relevant” I would say.

  16. Cerdigion may indeed have lost one “talented, passionate, and authentic liberal voice” – but it gained another. Ben Lake has been doing tremendous work since being elected MP, both in Westminster and more importantly perhaps in the constituency itself. Furthermore he succeeded in getting elected without resorting to any malicious campaign tactics, so it can be argued that his voice is in fact more “authentic”. He did indeed have big boots to fill, as Mark Williams was well respected as a good constituency representative, but Ben has very big feet and filled those shoes twice over. By concentrating their efforts on attempting to unseat the irreproachable Ben Lake, a true champion for young people and Ceredigion, the Lib Dems prove once again that it’s gaining power that drives them, rather than any genuine wish to improve people’s political representation. If they want to do some good they may spend their efforts attempting to unseat the Tory in Brecon & Radnorshire – a seat they held until 2015. A party that does not learn from its mistakes is doomed to suffer the same consequences at the ballot box.

  17. Matthew Dixon

    If there is one thing that differentiates the Lib Dems from other parties it is that “outward looking, tolerant” attitude that Jane speaks of. In an incredibly divided society we need more of that. Plus for those who want the Tories out, the Lib Dems are the only party that can boot them out of Powys. Here’s to more Lib Dems in the assembly instead of the divisive UKIP group who have taken their place.

  18. Math Wiliam – you make an odd case. By your own argument, plaid shouldn’t have tried to win Ceredigion in 2017 due to a progressive already holding the seat? Or maybe mark Williams shouldnt have tried to win in 2005?!

    Come on, it’s perfectly natural for parties to try and win seats that they think they have the best chance in winning.

    • Greetings Hans. You raise a fair point, but I can answer it! As well as sharing the Lib Dems’ commitment to progressive principles, Plaid Cymru does the added and all-important job of putting Wales on top of the agenda in Westminster. Plaid is the ONLY party that does this. For example, here’s what Plaid MPs have been saying today: That’s why it’s always imperative for the only nationalist party in Wales to win as many seats as possible. Since liberal progressiveness is the Lib Dems’ raison d’etre, they should concentrate their resources on getting rid of an unprogressive Tory in order to replace him with what I’m sure would be a decent Lib Dem MP, rather than try to unseat an exceptionally talented MP that shares their core values.

  19. The lib dems committed suicide under one Nic Leggue. He and his tori lickspittles supported welfare reform bill which yet further impoverished the underclass; when i don’t get work i have to pay bedroom tax. When i work , the crossover from wages to when i sign on again has left me short by hundreds of pound (under appeal).

    The oh so liberal democrats froze out the ppoor from education in order to support cammeroon and george ü spawn – basically monsters from hell that feed on the flesh of lower class children (i gather this sight does not like my calling em tori fascist scum).

    The liberal democrats are human rights deniers and as far as i care are in the same rotten barrel as toris and Nazis:

    After the 2nd ww, following the massive abuse of human rights, a charter for human rights was mooted by uk and us: this universal declaration stated that all people are equal, and it gave people the freedom to marry who they wished.

    So therefore, the neo liberal human rights denying scum supported cammeronn and ü spawn on a measure that denied poor people marrying whom they wished – they introduced a pay barrier to marrying people from abroad: the rich can marry, we can’t: liberal, these people wouldn’t know liberality if it bit em on the nose.

    Go away and snivel to death quietly in a dark corner: failures!

    • Benjiman L. Angwin

      Y fath negyddoldeb cas, chwerw á blas hen hél arno yn eich neges ydy’r pam bod pleidiau cardarnhaol fel Dem Rhydd a Phlaid Cymru yn hollol berthnasol heddiw.

  20. Who is Jane Dodds kidding ?.Kirsty Williams has very little to offer as the Education Secretary. I very much doubt if she would be a member of the Assembly Cabinet if the Labour Party had an overall majority. Also, forget Ceredigion. Future elections will be a contest between Plaid and Labour..Finally I consider Mark Williams to be very overrated – a member that contributed very little to constructive parliamentary debate.

  21. Mike Parker’s book on previous G.Election in Ceredigion well worth reading,not least as Lib Dems were the rivals.More significant still were votes cast while coalition was in power.A succession of votes in favour of austerity and transfering resources away from poorer people to richer ones looks indefensible(Mark William’s votes easy to review,however reasonable a local MP he was).The taxation change mentioned in Panaroma this week allowed Apple+co to basically divert profit declaration anywhere ie UK dodgy no tax islands.Fundamental and was voted through.Next time you use Cardigan new downsized library or can’t get social care you know why,responsibility not so difficult to track back if you try.Ddim yn dda….

  22. Will check the article later…good to see some cross party input here, which what the site needs, and will hopefully increase traffic and therefore improve the viability of the site! 🙂

  23. I’m fascinated by some earlier postings where it was stated that English immigrants are a net drain on the Welsh state. How could anyone think that that was true? Only blind Anglophobia leads people to make that claim.

    • Dafydd Thomas

      It is regrettable that John Jones is not aware of funding, health, and demography, problems in Wales, but the following might assist.

      In Wales, devolved health and education are financed from the Welsh government, and the cash for the Welsh government is based on the Barnett formula. the Holtham Commission on reviewing Barnett found that “the funding devolved activities in Wales fall below what Wales would receive were its budget determined by the various formulae the the London government uses to allocate resources to comparable functions in England”. Moreover for the lifetime of the devolved administration in Cardiff (indeed for over 30 Years) Wales received less per head than Scotland or Northern Ireland (public expenditure statistical analyses)

      The cost per head of these elderly English immigrants to NHS Wales is much greater than the average cost per head of the Welsh population, and the English immigrants to Wales are much older than the Welsh population ( based on 2011 census)

      The number of English immigrants in their 60s and over in Wales would be equivalent to all the over 65s in Belgium and Holland (4 million) turning up in England and using England NHS. A demographic disaster, and the English Labour Party and the English conservatives would certainly react against (they have reacted against immigration)

      In Wales as a consequence other services have to be stripped of finance to fund the health requirements of elderly English immigrants. Unsurprisingly Dr Phillip Dixon director of education Union ATL Cymru said “that the Welsh government had been underfunding Welsh pupils compared to their English counterparts for well over a decade”. It is a sad fact that children in Wales have less chance of achieving good GCSEs and A levels than they do in England.

      The state pensions of these English immigrants when they step into Wales are allocated to Welsh expenditure, included in the social protection payments in the GERW Government Expenditure and Revenue Wales.

      Mark Dayan of the Nuffield trust said that “Wales has (due to immigration from England) the highest proportion of people over 65 of anywhere in the UK which inevitably puts financial strain on NHS Wales” and “when you look at the health needs of a country you take into account how may older people there are”. This is not being done in Wales.

      In addition to this we have a social cleansing policy in England where many sick and vulnerable people have been pushed out of English cities. With over 100,000 dumped in Wales. The labour and conservative authorities in London especially have been actively promoting a social cleansing policy. Shelter has been campaigning against this but to no avail. The unfunded cost to Wales is huge and is continuing. We need to control this immigration in the same way that the English parties are proposing to control it for England.

    • Most people moving in are retired. Retired people do take more than put in…..its not xenophobia….it just is sadly

      On the positive…retired people could be used for expertise on many specialised subjects and life experience.

      Retired people can look after grandchildren which helps economy as always…see Im trying to be balanced….but overall – it can easily be a net drain

  24. Firstly the extra cost of people over 65 in Wales as a result of in-migration from England is derived from the DIFFERENCE between the number of pensioners living in Wales who were born in England MINUS the number of people who were born in Wales and are living in England. Wales had 149,133 English born pensioners at the 2011 census. England had 143,518 Welsh born pensioners according to the 2011 census and so, according to Dafydd Thomas’s preferred way of calculating, we in Wales have the NHS burden of 5,615 pensioners who aren’t “our responsibility”. Leaving aside the fact that those people paid UK tax and are entitled to care anywhere in the UK, this is a tiny proportion of the over 65 burden.
    Wales doesn’t actually pay pensions or social benefits out of the block grant. Something which Dafydd seems a bit vague on.
    Pensioners are only part of costs that fall on the Welsh government however; people born in England and living in Wales are disproportionately of WORKING age, are more likely to be economically active, less likely to be unemployed and less likely to have a long term disability or illness.
    The working age percentage of Welsh born people living in Wales is 60.9%.
    The working age percentage of English born people living in Wales is 67.9%

    And although there is a certain group of Welsh Nationalists who like to characterise English people as some kind of social undesirables just remember that England has disproportionately housed Welsh prisoners in English prisons for many decades.

    All in all English people (and any immigrant population in Wales) are an asset. What country wouldn’t want a well educated immigrant population that they hadn’t paid to educate and care for during childhood?
    As for Holtham’s calculations; for many years Wales benefited disproportionately from Barnett, then they lost out and now they are in a neutral position and improving.

    Shelve your nasty bigotry Dafydd Thomas and embrace your fellow British countrymen.

    • “embrace your fellow British countrymen” – buts the a very nationalist comment in itself….why not all humans

    • Dafydd Thomas

      The English immigrants to Wales are 24% over 65 (2011 census). The immigration into England was 11.5% over 65 (2011 census) which the English parties do not wish to embrace but stop or limit. The immigration to England was younger than that to Wales because of the elderly immigration from England. This is why we have an ageing population. Younger immigrants = less ageing population.

      Studies show that the socially cleansed, an English phenomenon, who arrive in Wales have 48% with a health condition requiring special housing needs and 89% with psychological problems. So the working age group of these have employment problems (this is why they are socially cleansed). In areas where these are placed unsurprisingly there is 67% unemployment in the working age group. The cost to social services and health are disproportionate.

      In addition to the English elderly who move to Wales, many Welsh people return to Wales to retire. These have paid their taxes in England but the pensions are allocated to Welsh expenditure., so that Wales is deemed to have a deficit. There are more English retirees in Wales than the whole of Spain but should these in Spain come to Wales after brexit then their pensions would be deemed Welsh expenditure for government. Likewise the social benefits paid to socially cleansed people from England ate added to Welsh expenditure by government. This shows Wales to have a deficit because of the immigration from England.

      • Free movement of people is a good thing.
        English people, as Welsh and Scottish have paid into UK taxation and National Insurance schemes throughout their working lives, if they want to retire in another country then their pension contributions should follow them. This can be done either by their scheme (state or private) following them, or particularly when Wales/Scotland gets its independence by an equivalent transfer value of the pension/health fund.
        The problem is arising because the UL/English parliament is not living up obligations to Wales to transfer UK taxation/NI contributions for people now living in Wales.

        By the way does the UK retirement pension scheme have an individual transfer value should a person wish to change schemes between countries in the EU ?

    • It’s ironic that my mother is one of the 143K, and when I get to retirement (assuming I stay in Wales) I will be one of the 149K. It’s really not a good measure.

    • Red Dragon Jim

      This is why I think Dafydd and others’ argument about pensioner incomers does not or cannot work. England is also taking ours.

      Yet we must recognise that an ageing popualtion causes difficulties. We need greater population growth, more immigration of younger people, and to keep more of our own would-be emigrants. Brexit will make this worse I’m afraid. We will still lose young people to London, but not be able to compensate with Europeans.

      Welsh nationalists should support immigration of younger people into Wales. It’s a bit late, I admit.

  25. Mark Williams’ biggest contribution during his time as MP was visiting coffee mornings. Represented a bilingual constituency but made no effort to learn the language. Good riddance.

  26. There’s no doubt that the lower average age of the England population is because of immigration. It is Wales’ misfortune that immigration is low into Wales. As for this repugnant bit of racist drivel:- “Studies show that the socially cleansed, an English phenomenon….” Where is this study that you quote?
    The 2011 census is clear cut English immigration is a net benefit to Wales; overall more working of age, fewer long term sick, fewer unemployed and more people economically active than the Welsh born population.
    Objectionable people like yourself Dafydd spend so much time trying to justify your all consuming hatred of the English that you are blind to the facts.

    • You’re making this up as you go along, ‘John Jones’ (what’s your real name?). Immigration into Wales is not low; the 2011 Census told us that 27.3% of the population of Wales was born outside of Wales, and a disproportionate percentage of those were past working age.

  27. Dafydd Thomas

    John, I find that people who continually use the words racist and hate as often as you do, seem to be describing themselves.

    The study referred to was carried out by the University of Leeds and university of Sheffield, looking at London Boroughs.

    I notice that the figure you give for the English born people in Wales was in fact the working age percentage of people in England.

    Incidentally, wherever did you get the figure of 143,518 Welsh born pensioners in England.

  28. As far as Ceredigion’s MP at Westminster goes, a Plaid Cymru MP such as the now incumbent Ben Lake would, if reelected at the next election, form part of a Plaid Cymru group such that in the event of coalition negotiations, Plaid Cymru would be able to decide whether they thought going into a coalition or not was good for Wales. A LibDem MP would be dependent on the wider LibDem party at a UK level, and Welsh LibDem MPs would be a minority or even a lone voice in that decision.

    Migration: In the article (yn Cymraeg) on BBC Cymru Fyw by Dafydd Elfryn note the chart “Cyfartaledd nifer y mudo fesul oedran (2001-2016)” – average number migrating by age (2001-2016) the highest total is for the age group 45-64 at 3299 (net) per year , with 65+ at 417. This actually corresponds with a study in Cornwall – which found that contrary to perceptions, it was in fact older working age people who were moving in in the largest numbers, not in fact retired people, I believe excepting a few years in the 1960s. I can’t find the original but it is referenced here: (page 4)

    The historian and Cornish studies expert Bernard Deacon may well be worth a read on the topic:

  29. John Jones…you obviously don’t read the Welsh press much…I doubt you even live in Wales, —if you did you would get off your high horse and into the real world.The social re-housing of Social Service dependents from England (expensive) to Wales (cheap) has been going on for over 25 years to my certain knowledge ! – It saved English Councils money…simple !

  30. Firstly Royston “Immigration” refers to people coming into the country from other countries and Wales share of immigrants is low in comparison to the rest of the UK. Immigrants have a lower average age than the native UK population and serve to lower the age profile of England in particular.
    Dafydd started the conversation by saying that English people coming into Wales were a considerable burden to the country because they had a high percentage of pensioners demanding services from the NHS. There are two ends to the age spectrum of course and he, and you, conveniently forget that English migrants are disproportionately of working age, more likely to be in employment and economically active and less likely to have a disability or limiting long term illness. Schooling is a considerable cost consideration for the WG and any adult who works in Wales but was educated elsewhere is a benefit to the economy.
    Dafydd; what the hell has a study of London Boroughs got to do with English people living in Wales?
    You can get 2011 census data here:-

    Labour market statistics are also on NOMIS.

    As for who I am…John Jones so stop your pathetic myth that Jacques Protic is hiding behind every name of every person that posts anything that you don’t like. Child!

  31. Dafydd Thomas

    You didn’t answer my question. You are confused as to which stats relate to Wales. At the risk of painfully overstating the obvious the London Boroughs are dumping socially cleansed people to Wales. Although in in working age group they have major health problems. I.e not able to be employed. What is protic some other sort of red herring?

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