Lee Waters speaks to Nation Cymru about new podcast and future plans

Emily Price

Former deputy minister Lee Waters has produced a series of mini documentaries lifting the lid on the inner workings of the Welsh Government.

The new podcast, dubbed ‘The Fifth Floor’ will take a peak behind the office doors of ministers, advisors and civil servants who have worked at the top of the Ty Hywel building in Cardiff Bay.

The series will throw light onto politics in Wales and explore the six biggest challenges faced by ministers working to “getting things done”.

‘Nitty-gritty’

Lee has been the member for Llanelli since 2016 and was Wales’ deputy minister for economy and transport until Vaughan Gething was elected first minister earlier this year.

He is most well known for being the mastermind behind Wales’ 20mph speed limit policy and for his passion for active travel.

Speaking to Nation Cymru, he explained where he got the idea for a podcast pulling back the curtain on the lesser known nitty-gritty of government workings.

After stepping down from his ministerial role earlier this year, Lee agreed to teach several seminars on the Welsh politics masters degree at Cardiff University.

As part of a presentation unravelling the pressures facing the Welsh Government, he was expected to offer students some suggested reading material.

But the former minister quickly realised there is very little written about how government in Wales actually works.

‘Shock’

He decided to tackle this gap by creating some academic content for students himself.

Lee said: “What I found very striking about being a minister myself was the shock to the system it was compared to being a back bencher.

“It’s a completely different system, a completely different environment – different language, sets of people, a different rhythm. It was a whole world of it’s own.

“I thought I was an unusually well engaged person when it came to how government in Wales works – but it was all very new to me.

“It’s no surprise that people don’t know about it, because people don’t talk about it and there’s no reading to point them to.

“So I thought it would be a useful public service to try to address that and in terms of teaching, I’d say it’s essential.”

Strains

As a former journalist for ITV, Lee is no stranger to carrying out interviews and grilling politicians.

He set about arranging discussions with some of his fellow former ministers who could explain the distinct strains they faced whilst in office.

Lee also spoke candidly with former senior advisers and civil servants – many of whom have never spoken on the record before.

Using the transcripts, he created educational literature for university students to fill the gap in reading material on Welsh Government workings.

Afterwards, he was left with a hours of audio recordings, which he used to create six mini documentaries using just an iPhone and some simple editing software on his laptop.

Demanding

The episodes explore the six main issues that former ministers felt were the most demanding when they worked in government roles.

Former counsel general, Mick Antoniw, former culture and social justice secretary, Lesley Griffiths, and former education minister Kirsty Williams have all taken part in the series.

Lee said: “The podcast is going to be politically interesting because it will shine a light on a part of the Welsh Government that hasn’t had a light shone on it before.

“It will also raise some issues about the way we do government in Wales.

“But I think also it will help put a human face on the pressures people in government face, it’s a very very tough environment and it takes it toll on everyone who works on it.”

A trailer released on Spotify features Kirsty Williams speaking honestly about how she felt “wildly ambitious” about what she could achieve as a minister – before taking “too long” to realise that the department didn’t have the capacity to do everything she wanted to do.

Candid

Lee says his choice to only interview former Welsh Government ministers was a deliberate one.

He said: “I didn’t think it was fair to speak to serving ministers because that puts them in a difficult position and I wanted it to be a candid interview.

“The purpose of these interviews if not a journalistic interview – I’m not trying to catch anybody out or create headlines.

“This was an education exercise and these were people I had worked with so there was a degree of trust – they were willing to trust me to do it.

“Two people I interviewed asked me not to use the transcript so I’ve just used them for background. It’s quite a sensitive area and some people are understandably reticent.

“I think because I’ve been there myself as a minister, and there’s a level of trust there – they know I’m not out to get them – it does produce something that is a very different tone to just being a traditional documentary.”

Civil service

Other episodes include discussions exploring the breadth of ministerial responsibilities and the workloads involved, the relationship the Welsh Government has with local government and the pressures faced by the civil service to get things done quickly.

Lee said: “I spoke to three former ministers, four former special advisors and two senior civil servants – and they never usually speak out.

“I’ve also put together a ‘forward’ – which I will release when the relevant podcast comes out – explaining the size of the Welsh Government civil service.

“We talk a lot Senedd capacity, we never talk about Welsh Government capacity and it’s a significant issue for delivery.”

Insightful

Lee is finalising the last of the technical editing and hopes to launch the first episode in the next week or so – aiming for a fortnightly drop after that.

He said: “I wanted to tell a story and I’m pleased with the way it’s turned out. It’s clearly very niche but very interesting – it won’t have a massive audience, but for those who have an interest in this kind of stuff, I think it’s insightful.”

In October, Lee announced he will not be putting his name forward for re-selection in the 2026 Senedd election.

Asked if podcasting is something he would like to do as part of a future career, he said he hadn’t yet made his mind up.

He said: “I think it’s quite a scary thing because people aren’t queuing up to hire ex politicians.

“If I go for a job interview and someone googles me, well that’s not a great start when it comes to the noise, conflict and controversy of the 20mph default speed limit.

“Having been an employer myself who has had former politicians apply to work for them, I think employers are very nervous about that, understandably.

“I’m enjoying doing some volunteer teaching and weekly A level tutoring for something called the Access Project which offers free tuition to kids in deprived areas who can’t afford it.

“I’m just feeling my way around really to see what I enjoy and what I might be interested in.

“I’ve always enjoyed talking to students – I consider myself a life long student of politics because I just find it interesting.

“I’m in a position where I can add to the body of knowledge and I want to do that, I think it’s an important service.”

A teaser episode of The Fifth Floor is available on Spotify – or wherever you get your podcasts.