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Wales and Scotland not nations and independence should be made ‘impossible’ says Lord Frost

19 Aug 2022 3 minute read
Lord Frost picture by Tim Hammond / No 10 Downing Street (CC BY-NC-ND 2.0).

Wales and Scotland aren’t nations, the UK should become a “unitary state” with devolution “evolved back”, and independence should be made “impossible”, an influential Tory peer has said.

Writing in the Telegraph, former Brexit minister Lord Frost said that the devolved governments were “subordinate” to Westminster and that the UK Government needed to change how it discussed them.

He that a referendum on independence should “simply be impossible”, with a bar of 75 per cent of seats in the devolved parliament being in favour of independence, over an entire decade.

He said that letting part of the UK go would be a “massive national humiliation” and “morally wrong”.

“The new government can start by changing its language,” he said. “Somehow we have all drifted into speaking as if this country were already a confederation made up of four ‘nations’ that have chosen to work together (but could equally choose differently). When we think like that, we end up having to constantly justify the existence of our country, on a purely transactional basis.

“But the UK is a unitary state, not a federation or a confederation. Both the 1707 and 1801 Acts of Union fused the participants into one state in which all were equal, first ‘Great Britain’, then the ‘United Kingdom’, with one sovereign legal personality and one Parliament and government.

“For all the noise, that is still the case.” He added: “Moreover, if you are a citizen of that unitary state, you are British.”

‘Abandoned’

He added that the UK Government needed “to act” to stop devolved “mission creep”.

“The devolved administrations do not have powers in foreign relations or immigration – they are ‘reserved matters’,” he said.

“If the UK government does not police these boundaries, soon they will no longer exist.

“Meanwhile, I urge people in England not to give in to the ‘let them go’ argument. Partly because the break-up of the country would be a massive national humiliation. In Europe and beyond, it would be seen as a comeuppance which they would exploit to the full.

“But, more importantly, because it is morally wrong. Supporters of the Union in Scotland, people who have built their lives and families on the assumption of its permanence, should not be abandoned. The UK is everyone’s country and we must protect and support it.”


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DAI Ponty
DAI Ponty
1 month ago

So you insult Wales and Scotland by saying we are not NATIONS well sunshine we do not call our selves English or British i consider myself WELSH AND EUROPEAN WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO CALL THIS IGNORANT PRATT YOU WOULD NOT PRINT

Leigh Richards
Leigh Richards
1 month ago

“Wales and Scotland not nations”….keep it up Frost 👏…this is music to the ears of Welsh and Scottish indy supporters ☺️. It’s precisely that kind of contempt for our nationhood from rabid ‘John Bull’ English nats like Frost which has in no small part spurred the growth in support for indy in our two NATIONS of Wales and Scotland

Last edited 1 month ago by Leigh Richards
Anna Roberts
Anna Roberts
1 month ago

Cymraes ydw i! Rydw i’n perthyn i genedl oedd yma cyn y Saeson a hoffwn fod yn Ewropead, nid yn Brydeinwraig!
I am Welsh and belong to the Celts who were here long before the Anglo saxons! I would rather be European, not British!
People like Lord Frost belongs to the old Empire mentality not to the twenty first century. This conservative government has more in common with Putin and China than with modern European leaders.

Dr John Ball
Dr John Ball
1 month ago

Seriously….this kind of attack does actually help.

It’s forgotten that after the north of England rejected a regional assembly, research showed that there was too little emphasis on the cultural strengths that underpin the north’s differences and too much emphasis on the economic argument.

There is no question that we have to address the economic issues, but the more our nation is insulted, the more the cause of independence will grow, economic arguments or not.

Please keep up the good work Lord Frost!

Llefain
Llefain
1 month ago

Factually we are nations. This guy’s lack of understanding of the meaning of words does not change that. Also, thanks for going fully mask off with this quote; “Meanwhile, I urge people in England not to give in to the ‘let them go’ argument. Partly because the break-up of the country would be a massive national humiliation. In Europe and beyond, it would be seen as a comeuppance which they would exploit to the full.” We are colonies, occupied territories, and the last remnants of England’s empire and ego. That mindset underpins everything in this rotten “union”. And we deserve… Read more »

I.Humphrys
I.Humphrys
1 month ago
Reply to  Llefain

Well, I have been saying this for years. The optics of “England” are not the same as “U.K.” We are living at a turning point in history, where fictions are being exposed.
A smart Welsh Gov. could navigate us to calmer waters.

Last edited 1 month ago by I.Humphrys
Richard 1
Richard 1
1 month ago

Frost is appealing to history which includes, massively, the history of conquest. Ultimately they can only govern by consent in the present. That is steadily being eroded by incompetence, arrogance and greed and by overstating the significance of the 2016 referendum which had merely advisory status and produced such a marginal result that it ought never to have been acted upon.

hdavies15
hdavies15
1 month ago

Man is a Grade A tosser. Yet another bonkers Tory out for his periodic howl at the moon. Once upon a time even the Tory party could muster a few bright sensible balanced types. Now I see no evidence that any survive. At this rate Redwood will be on the reserved moderate wing of that party !

Andrew
Andrew
1 month ago

The act of annexation was and still is morally illegal. Frost is the type of recruitment mouthpiece we love.

Gareth
Gareth
1 month ago

Well, he just gave the true reason why they oppose us being able to decide for ourselves how we should be ruled. Not economics, not better off together, or any if that crap, but it would be a ” national humiliation “,and the English establishment cannot face the thought of it, their pride taking a hit comes before our rights. What an obnoxious excuse for a human, when he would deny us our rights just so he and his ilk can be seen not feeling embarrassed.

John
John
1 month ago

Let’s state some facts:

David George Hamilton Frost:

  1. Has never been elected to as much as a community council.
  2. Was responsible for negotiating the disastrous Brexit agreement.
  3. Was responsibe for the mess that is the NI protocol.
  4. Was elevated to the peerage by the corrupt Boris Johnson.

.. and he has the affrontery to take away my nationality!

Duw a’n gwaredo rhag y moch Gadara hyn.

Fi yn unig
Fi yn unig
1 month ago

Go on Frosty boy! Keep winding everyone up and the membership of Yes Cymru will be 2 million before you know it. By the way, never mind Wales and Scotland. You need to get on with telling England that IT is not a nation either. It can’t be under your perverse agenda.

Fi yn unig
Fi yn unig
1 month ago
Reply to  Fi yn unig

P.S. Frost says ‘not nations’. Does this mean ‘The Six Nations’ Rugby tournament will have to be renamed ‘The Three Nations plus three other places’? Should we inform FIFA that their 32 nation World Cup Finals tournament later this year is actually 30 nations and two pretend nations? When those two pretend nations play each other, he’ll find the people supporting them are Welsh and English. Come back in November Frosty and try telling those people THEN that they have no nation.

Dewi Davies
Dewi Davies
1 month ago
Reply to  Fi yn unig

Your 100% correct.If were not a nation then neither is England.Which poses the question of which people is he asking not to get involved in the “let them go” argument. Strange thing to say.

Fi yn unig
Fi yn unig
1 month ago
Reply to  Dewi Davies

Yes it is. Very strange.

Argol fawr!
Argol fawr!
1 month ago

Perhaps the EU should have had a similar law preventing countries from leaving. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have wanted that. Frost (he’s no lord) already knows first hand about being humiliated. He himself completely botched up the EU/Brexit negotiations, having no clue, then resigned. Idiot… Expletives withheld.

George Bodley
George Bodley
1 month ago
Reply to  Argol fawr!

The word your looking for is fu@@wit

Fraiz
Fraiz
1 month ago

Yet, if you told “Lord” Frost that England wasn’t a nation, the veins would be popping out of his gammon neck.

The Original Mark
The Original Mark
1 month ago

why has my comment been deleted?
it’s time to stop pussy footing around with these colonialists, and I repeat he’s got his history wrong Wales was annexed

Jim
Jim
1 month ago

Concerted campaigns of attrition are a commonly used tool in politics when a change in public opinion is demanded in order to gain traction for your policy. It worked in the right wing drive to weaken the welfare state, to cut public spending, to damage Mr Corbyn’s reputation, to weaken the unions and so it goes on…..because it works very well. Shout something often and loud enough and people start to believe it. The devolution factor is no different; expect a long line of ‘opinion formers’ to be wheeled out like a shoal of piranhas all taking a bite at… Read more »

HywelE3
HywelE3
1 month ago
Reply to  Jim

Cymru is hamstrung by having Communication (radio, tv, press etc.) refused devolvement to the Senedd.
We need 2 million more members of YESCymru/AUOB etc.

I.Humphrys
I.Humphrys
1 month ago
Reply to  HywelE3

Well, Yes Cymru need a You Tube channel? Or Rumble or whatever………….

Richard
Richard
1 month ago

I am reminded yet again of the warning ⚠️ shared with me many years back when I was working in the Leinster House in Dublin. Indeed a warning Jack Frost 🥶 the unelected and well remunerated Unionist Tory Peer. I shared a coffee with an old and retired Senator who had first been elected as a very young man as part of the old Irish ☘️ Home Rule party founded. by Parnell and co to secure ‘ “ domain status within the empire “ for a united Ireland 🇮🇪- very much the Devo Max folk of the post First World… Read more »

Steve Duggan
Steve Duggan
1 month ago

When will these people ever learn? Honestly, they say they want to preserve the Union and yet their every action is leading to it’s demise. I’m not complaining, I’m just flabbergasted they can’t see it! 😆😆

Last edited 1 month ago by Steve Duggan
HywelE3
HywelE3
1 month ago

Persistent peaceful insistence is usually more effective than violence – see Gandhi.

One of the two witnesses
One of the two witnesses
1 month ago

Putler and Frosty separated at birth?

Mike McNamee
Mike McNamee
1 month ago

As a natural conservative and person born to Welsh parents, but myself delivered and raised in England before moving back to Wales to live in my mid thirties, I increasingly find the attitude of many ‘English’ and the members and supporters of the current Government totally unhelpful, even downright rude when it comes to the devolved nations. In his own comments he talks about a ‘Union of equals’ yet sadly, as far as the English have been concerned this has never been the case. Indeed his own comments about the devolved administrations being ‘subordinate’ to the Westminster Government clearly illustrate… Read more »

Crwtyn Cemais
Crwtyn Cemais
1 month ago
Reply to  Mike McNamee

Eloquently put, Mr McNamee. However, for ‘the constitutional shake-up’ of the UK to happen, it would require enough Westminster MP’s who represent English constituencies, to actively support the aforesaid shake-up. Having studied, lived and worked in England (although I now live in my native Wales once again) for some 10 years, I’m very familiar with England and how it perceives its place in the current form of the UK and I don’t believe that a constitutional shake-up of the four constituent nations’ relationship to one another, is even on its radar at present. It would not surprise me that in… Read more »

Stephen Owen
Stephen Owen
1 month ago

Frost doesn’t get to decide what is my nationality, Cymru am byth 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

George Bodley
George Bodley
1 month ago
Reply to  Stephen Owen

Bring back the MAC

Dafydd
Dafydd
1 month ago

*English humiliation*

Peter Cuthbert
Peter Cuthbert
1 month ago
Reply to  Dafydd

Just to cheer you up, I will relate a true story. I had in my past career to teach a Chinese mainland student 1:1 for a year so we got to know each other rasonably well. She was intelligent, respectful, did all the reading asked of her, submitted excellent work on time, etc. – a model student. In conversation it emerged that her family were close to the Chinese Communist Party hierarchy. It also emerged that the Communiist party was still unhappy about the humiliation heaped upon the Country by the British in the two Opium Wars. (China wanted to… Read more »

I.Humphrys
I.Humphrys
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter Cuthbert

100 years of humiliation? Not to worry, India, and many others, also in the queue.

George Bodley
George Bodley
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter Cuthbert

Sooner the better

Mick Tems
Mick Tems
1 month ago

Do we have to read what this rabid Tory nutter thinks of us? Don’t buy The Torygraph, the most expensive toilet paper in the galaxy!

Mawkernewek
1 month ago

This is basically the definition of the phrase “saying the quiet part out loud” with respect to Unionism.

Quornby
Quornby
1 month ago

Prepare for humiliation you arse.

J R Tomlin
J R Tomlin
1 month ago

“Moreover, if you are a citizen of that unitary state, you are British.”

I wonder what punishment LORD Frost has in mind for people who dare to consider themselves Scots or Welsh? Re-education camps?

Rob
Rob
1 month ago

By the same logic then neither is England.

Kerry Davies
Kerry Davies
1 month ago

Hohohoho heeheeheehee hahahahaha oh my ears and whiskers. What a plonker.

Llyn
Llyn
1 month ago

So according Lord Frost “the UK is a unitary state…both the 1707 and 1801 Acts of Union fused the participants into one state…with one sovereign legal personality and one Parliament and government.” Then that’s it the citizens of Wales and Scotland in the 21st century should have no democratic outlet to change how they are governed because of what undemocratic Parliaments hundreds of year ago decided.

Y Cymro
Y Cymro
1 month ago

Hope all you Brexiteers in Wales are listening to what Brexit bigot Frost is saying? Apparently you don’t exist. The very same Conservative cretin falsely parrotted how the EU stole “Britain’s” power & soverignty the reason to vote for Brexit , now not only denies Welsh & Scottish nationhood. but says that England owns our soverignty, and wants to remove our democratically elected parliaments by force bringing us back under English Whitehall rule.

#YesCymru 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 ✊ #Ymlaen 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿✊#ConservativesAreFacists 🇬🇧☣️

Crwtyddol
Crwtyddol
1 month ago

Humiliating? To whom precisely?
Is England a nation? Presumably not. Importantly, England does not have its own Senedd. Therfore, Westminster must be England’s gov, as well as the UK’s
. Therfore by definition, We are subordinate to England. Keep it up Frost-Joke, you’re doing as well as your Brexit negotiations, and where did they get us? This attitude of ignorance belongs to the period prior to the abolition of slavery.

Crwtyddol
Crwtyddol
1 month ago

Your comment is unacceptable and smacks of ISIS

robin campbell
robin campbell
1 month ago
Reply to  Crwtyddol

I think Saislayer was throwing Frost’s words back in his face. It’s called ‘irony’ or something similar.

Rob E
Rob E
1 month ago

Westminster and the UK Government have “devolved” some of their powers to the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments, NI Assembly and their governments so, technically, they are “subordinate”. The devolved powers can be overridden or taken back. Indeed, they are doing that with the Shared Prosperity Fund, administered by Whitehall, that’s replaced the (larger) European Development Fund which was granted to and administered by the devolved governments. But why do we have devolution? It’s because, over the centuries, the UK parliament and Government and the British state have failed or neglected to differentiate themselves from being a parliament and government for… Read more »

Mike Lloyd
Mike Lloyd
1 month ago

I hope if in the future there were negotiations on the final treaty of independence that the tories put him in charge of it all. After all he did a sterling job of the Northern Ireland protocols with the EU didn’t he

Ernie The Smallholder
Ernie The Smallholder
1 month ago

So, Mr Frost, you and your party believe that Wales and Scotland are not nations. That is exactly what your friend Mr Putin thinks about the Ukraine. I presume that making this statement means that you Mr Frost agree with Mr Putin. (That is the logic). When the Ukraine wanted to make new alliances Mr Putin’s army invaded. Early 20th century history between UK and Ireland wasn’t that nice for the people of Ireland. Mr Frost, you and your regime are sounding more and more like the PUTIN regime everyday. Regimes such as the UK, Hitler’s empire, and the USSR… Read more »

Pysgodyn
Pysgodyn
1 month ago

Surely, if Frost doesn’t recognise Wales and Scotland then it follows he shouldn’t refer to his country as England either. By his own argument, he should forever refer to England as Britain, but never England and, as we all know too well, the English
wouldn’t like that would they?!

George Bodley
George Bodley
1 month ago

This is typical of unionist anti democratic Tory government wanting to shift goalposts on voting stating 75% vote in favour of independence when it should be over 50% the Brexit vote springs to mind talk about stacking the odds in favour of unionism these criminals need to go and any future labour government should be held firmly to account ain’t this just typical of little englanders desperately clinging to power

David Smith
David Smith
1 day ago

He’s too thick to realise he’s also insulted the people of England by denouncing their nationhood too with his homogenising One Nation Britishness.

He also conflated disdain for the Conservative party with Anglophobia, so, yes, thick as pig plop again.

The piece is written in the dire and foreboding language of occupation. Let’s see how the heavy hand wins people over, it worked in Ireland didn’t it, numb nuts?

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