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Opinion

Could the right win in Wales?

07 Dec 2024 5 minute read
The Senedd. Photo Geoff Caddick/PA Wire

Jonathan Edwards

In my previous life I used to hate opinion polls. Don’t get me wrong – I was obsessed with all sorts of data, be it opinion polling, focus groups or voter identification work. It was just that media coverage of opinion polling sucked all oxygen from the political debate.

As someone who is now fortunate to scribble a few thoughts on politics they are captivating, especially when a poll comes along and produces a result that no one expected.

Despite this I firmly believe opinion polls for public consumption should be prohibited during a formal election period. Their very presence means that news coverage both mainstream and on social media during a campaign moves from one poll to the other, and there is hardly any meaningful coverage of the major issues that should be debated during this very period.

As an aspiring commentator, I should learn the perils of penning an article on one poll only to find another poll coming along within days which changes the situation completely, as happened at the weekend.

Earth-shattering

Recognising all the obvious caveats about this being only one poll and margins of error, the latest Barn Cymru poll by YouGov for ITV Cymru and Cardiff University’s Wales Governance Centre is earth-shattering.

The poll places Plaid Cymru in the lead for the first time in a Wales wide poll for the Senedd since 2010 on 24% of the vote; Labour and Reform on 23% and the Tories on 19%.

If this trend is sustained, then both Labour and the Conservative parties are in deep trouble.

For Labour they are haemorrhaging votes to the Welsh nationalist left and the British nationalist right.

Being attacked from both flanks leaves them politically wide open. If the trend persists and accelerates the threat could become existential.

In Carmarthenshire, as we peeled away Labour elected members in successive elections, the whole operation collapsed like a pack of cards.

The core of the party is rotten: it might not possess the local organisation to recover from a bad election.

Precipice

The Tory brand is on the precipice of existential territory already. This is the second poll in quick succession that puts them behind Reform. The movement to Reform from their natural support base could become a stampede. Although for the right in general this might not necessarily be a major issue.

Of all the parties it seems to me that Reform is the best placed to make advances from their current position.

This should be sending shivers down the backs of the political establishment in Cardiff Bay. Voters of all parties are prepared to vote for them. The reasons for this have been covered in previous articles.

In several conversations last week that I had with normal people in my home communities, I sensed the old Brexit divides emerging. Those that voted Brexit are enthused by the emergence of Reform. Those who opposed Brexit are appalled by Reform.

I sense on my social media feeds the same energy which fuelled the Brexit vote simmering. We know how Wales voted then.

What I suspected would face Wales at the next but one Senedd election might fast forward to 2026.

At the end of the day every election is a numbers game and the only thing that really matters is how the seat allocation for each party will fall. The new system makes matters trickier this time but let’s look at two different calculations I have come across this week.

The first, by Deryn Consulting, places Labour on 25 seats; Reform on 25; Plaid Cymru on 24; Tories 19; Lib Dems 2 and the Greens 1. If this was the case the main strategic considerations are covered in the article published last week.

The New Wales think tank has calculated the following: Plaid Cymru 28; Reform 27; Labour 23; Conservatives 17; Lib Dems 1.

Polarise

If this is replicated it would be an earthquake moment in Welsh politics. Furthermore, if more polls produce results like this over the next 16 months, Labour could collapse as voters polarise between Plaid and Reform.

On this basis the only stable government is a Plaid-led administration supported by Labour.

After a century of hegemony in our country, would Labour be willing to accept a subordinate role be it confidence and supply or a formal coalition? I suspect they won’t make life easy, based on what’s happened in Scotland over the last 13 years, and I very much doubt that the Labour UK Government would give much consideration to demands for more Senedd powers from Plaid.

The right-wing block of Reform and the Conservatives based on this projection would only be five short of majority.

Could they together cross the Rubicon and change Wales forever?

The momentum is with the forces of change. I would suspect that Reform will be highlighting that Plaid can’t change didlly squat without coming to some sort of arrangement with Labour and that their programme to all intents and purposes is continuity Labour in any case.

Plaid will surely polarise against Reform in the hope of siphoning off as many progressive votes as possible from Labour.

Labour must surely do everything it can to destabilise Plaid and present itself as the only credible bulwark against the populist right.

As for the Tories, it seems their best bet is coming to an informal electoral pact with Reform so that both maximise seat numbers. It will be interesting to see how their new leader responds to the dire polling position the party finds itself in.

These are the emerging battle lines as we enter 2025, a year that could change the face of Welsh politics forever.

Furthermore, developments in Wales might give an indication of the trajectory of the political debate across the UK.

If the right was to unite, Labour’s landslide of only a few months ago looks built on sand.

Jonathan Edwards was the MP for Carmarthen East & Dinefwr from 2010 until 2024.


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TheOtherJones
TheOtherJones
10 days ago

Interesting analysis which covers the thoughts I’ve been having since the New Wales projection, and Deryn’s. I can’t see Labour accepting a junior role in a formal coalition Government led by Plaid… just can’t see it, especially after their attitude to Plaid in the recent Co-op agreement. If Plaid was the biggest party I think they’d have to go it alone as a minority like Alex Salmond’s SNP did – albeit Plaid would likely be a in a weaker position. If that prospect became I real possibility it’s not unthinkable that the ultra British nationalist party, Reform, would enter into… Read more »

Sylwebydd
Sylwebydd
10 days ago

Interesting assessment but I wonder whether JE is not becoming a closet Labour supporter. More radical for Labour would be to take up the mantle of Yes Cymru as half their members have done and either merge with PC who after all basically have the same philosophy other than the degree of devolution/independence they want; or have a left wing pact to maximise left leaning 1 2 voting preferences or even agree not to contest the same constituences. Now I would definitely vote for that.

John Ellis
John Ellis
9 days ago

‘Of all the parties it seems to me that Reform is the best placed to make advances from their current position.’ ‘I sense on my social media feeds the same energy which fuelled the Brexit vote simmering. We know how Wales voted then.’ I’m certainly no expert psephologist, but I have been an attentive observer of politics for almost seventy years. (OK, I started young – it was first the Suez adventure and, a couple of months later, the abortive Hungarian revolution that first kindled my young interest!) And my hunch coincides with Mr Edwards’s. I think that, at least… Read more »

Steve
Steve
9 days ago

I’m not sure that the terms ‘right’ and ‘left’ have any great relevance anymore. Someone can simultaneously have opinions that are historically ‘right wing’ (pro business. strong borders) and left wing (public ownership of key industries) and yet be pro devolution and pro Welsh language – where do they fit in?. The significant division is now between establishment parties and anti-establishment parties. The establishment parties each have their pet obsessions (eg for Labour its Palestine and identity politics, for the Tories it is free markets and immigration) however fundamentally they are both the same. The establishment parties have had their… Read more »

Ernie The Smallholder
Ernie The Smallholder
9 days ago

This article is a warning. Actual voting has yet to take place. There is 14 months to go until the next Senedd election. Most people that were Labour or Tory have recorded a Reform/UKIP vote as an alternative to the old politics, when asked about their voting intentions: Lab/Cons they reply as none of the above. I suggest that this is a grand opportunity for Plaid Cymru on the ground, if we can bring policies back to community politics and voting. There has to be hard work up to the next election in 2026 if we want a nation that… Read more »

Last edited 9 days ago by Ernie The Smallholder
Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
8 days ago

Unfortunately you seem to have drunk all the Plaid Kool-Aid. Plaid, along with Labour (in both Cymru and Westminster) seem blissfully unaware that people right now don’t give much of a damn about devolution, independence or Plaid’s policy on tea cosies. What’s important right now is, literally, bread and butter issues, such as the cost of living, finding somewhere to live that doesn’t suck up 2/3 of your income and working in a job that actually pays enough to thrive and not just eke out a miserable existence. Unless Plaid has some magic beans, they will not be in a… Read more »

Fanny Hill
Fanny Hill
8 days ago
Reply to  Padi Phillips

If Wales succumbs to a Reform led Senedd, we will become the testbed for every crackpot, ill thought out policy that Refuk can come up with. By the next General Election the UK will hopefullly see what bunch of incompetents they really are. Unfortunately the damage to Wales will have been done. How many voters will be spouting the classic line from the Brexit referendum, ” I didn’t think it would happen, I just wanted to send a message.”

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
7 days ago
Reply to  Fanny Hill

I have little doubt that you are absolutely correct. What I find so worrying is that so many openly state their intentions of voting for Reform UK despite knowing full well what a bunch of crypto-fascists they are. But what will enable them more than anything else is the utter refusal of Plaid and Labour to acknowledge how they’ve completely ignored the valid concerns of ordinary people and still seem to think that somehow a few enlightened policies should do the trick of bringing voters back into the fold. They need to get real and start to address the genuine… Read more »

Llyn
Llyn
9 days ago

Amongst other things Plaid need to have a great social media presence and either come to some arrangement with the Green Party, or ram home the message that voting Green will lead to a far-right, climate change denying Reform gov.

TheOtherJones
TheOtherJones
9 days ago
Reply to  Llyn

There are key differences between the Greens and Plaid, despite some shared interests.

I don’t agree that it can be assumed those who vote Green will vote Plaid (or visa versa) if there’s a pact, it didn’t work in 2019.

I also don’t see why calls are made for the Greens to stand down whenever a bigger left leaning party hasn’t got its act together to sufficiently see off the Tories, or now Reform, in pre election polling.

Eddy
Eddy
9 days ago

The Welsh Cons need to reclaim conservatism from those that revel in their reputation as lawless humanity hating sociopaths.

S Duggan
S Duggan
9 days ago

If the far right gain power in Cymru – it’ll mean the end of the Senedd, and quite possibly the end of any hope of an independent Cymru. As much as I want an independent Cymru now, it would be better for the progressive party of our country to work together on this occasion. Especially, if the polls still remain close by the end of summer next year. The very future of our country is at stake, it’s entirely possible that by competing against each other, the far right will gain power. That can’t be allowed to happen.

Llyn
Llyn
8 days ago
Reply to  S Duggan

Good post. The idea that Plaid with 25-30% of the vote can run a minority government for more than a few months, when the right Tories) and far-right (Reform) have say 45-50% of the vote is for the birds. Plaid would have to come to some sort of agreement with Labour or dare I say it the Tories. With Andrew RT gone that may be possible. The Conservatives cannot go into coalition with Reform or Labour for UK/Westminster political reasons.

Linda Jones
Linda Jones
9 days ago

I would hope Plaid will win the next Senedd election and would not form any special arrangement with the incompetence that is Labour.

Llyn
Llyn
8 days ago
Reply to  Linda Jones

With about 25 MSs it’ll be impossible for Plaid to govern alone so they will have to come to some arrangement with a party. With Andrew RT Davies gone possibly the Tories?

Adrian
Adrian
8 days ago

An observation. There needs to be balance in politics. History shows what happens when either the left, or the right, is allowed to go unchecked, and it’s always been catastrophic. People from either end of the spectrum need to engage in respectful discourse in order to arrive at workable outcomes. It’s not perfect but it’s the best strategy we’ve come up with. For as long as people insist on mis-characterising people who are simply right-leaning as far-right, extreme right, hard right etc. there’ll be no chance of any meaningful conversation. Such lazy thinking is quite clearly a bigger problem on… Read more »

Last edited 8 days ago by Adrian
Llyn
Llyn
8 days ago
Reply to  Adrian

Well of course nobody wants to be called far-right. However I’m not politically correct and here are some reasons why Reform UK is most certainly a far-right party. The far-right believe the nation is in decay or crisis and radical action is required to halt or reverse it by attacking enemies within. For Reform UK these are asylum seekers, Muslims and Islam more generally. The far-right right considers society to be separated into two homogeneous and antagonistic groups, the pure people and the corrupt elite, and which argues that politics should be an expression of the will of the people”.… Read more »

Adrian
Adrian
8 days ago
Reply to  Llyn

I don’t care about being called far right when the person using the slur doesn’t understand its meaning. I just think it’d be more productive if some people dialled down their histrionics and started using the English language properly. Wanting a conversation about mass immigration (for example) does not align a person with Hitler.

Last edited 8 days ago by Adrian
Llyn
Llyn
8 days ago
Reply to  Adrian

I noted a number of reasons why Reform UK is unquestionably a far-right party. I note you have only attacked the idea of calling a far-right party a far-right party rather than providing any any evidence to back up your standpoint.

As for “Wanting a conversation about mass immigration (for example) does not align a person with Hitler”. Why that arguement is being used I’m not sure as I have not mentioned it?

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
8 days ago
Reply to  Adrian

Could you illuminate? How is lazy thinking more of a problem on the left than on the right? And no, there is no ‘mis-characterising’, the far-right are indeed the far right. Pretty much the whole Tory party is now the far-right, and Stamer’s Labour and moderate Tories and elements of the LibDems form the right. Farage and the hordes of knuckle draggers even more to the right form the extreme right. Much of the extreme right are quite simply fascists. No, that’s not histronics, simply observation and reading what they say about themselves.

Gwern Gwynfil
Gwern Gwynfil
8 days ago
Reply to  Padi Phillips

But we shouldn’t conflate supporters with the party leadership – the Welsh Election Study has shown that in Wales RU support has limited ideological crossover with that party and its positions. These are mostly justifiably angry and frustrated people, not Far Right racists and bigots – the other parties need to listen to this mass protest and respond positively.
Calling people names when they already dislike and distrust you is not going to win you their support or make them question their own support for the current incarnation of the right’s disuptor party vehicle…

Adrian
Adrian
8 days ago
Reply to  Gwern Gwynfil

Thank you – now we’re getting somewhere!
Padi Phillips…this is called reasonable discourse, you should try it.

Cablestreet
Cablestreet
8 days ago
Reply to  Adrian

Not every German that initially voted for Hitler was a Nazi, and look where that got us.
Stop being so sanctimonious, and accept your previous posts have shown where your true colours lie.
You’ve already played the Christian nation card, the new found badge of the far right.

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
7 days ago
Reply to  Cablestreet

I think people severely underestimate the dangers of the far-right, but unfortunately any robust emphasis of that is often dismissed as hyperbole. I think it’s pretty clear where Adrian stands politically, and much of his commentary is just trolling. We’ve seen the utter idiocy of the Tory party in it’s most right wing guise yet, and no doubt we’ll see even more idiocy from the likes of the Poundland fascists of Reform, but somewhere is a hard core that aren’t utter loonies who will take over and then things won’t be so nice. I find it impossible to excuse people… Read more »

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
7 days ago
Reply to  Adrian

I have never not been reasonable in my discourse. That you don’t happen to agree or like my standpoint is neither here nor there.

Llyn
Llyn
8 days ago
Reply to  Gwern Gwynfil

Not always Gwern, but let’s have a look at Reform UK’s candidate for this week’s Cardiff Council Splott by-election +Lee Canning. Previously with the far-right Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party and someone who has previously tweeted out pictures with his friends from the racist Voice of Wales group. These are the type of extremists who the Party puts forward for election.

Jonathan Edwards
Jonathan Edwards
6 days ago
Reply to  Llyn

Neil McEvoy’s Propel beat Reform in Splott (also Plaid, out of sight). Propel is not the finished article, but it shows what a more centrist Indy party might achieve,

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
7 days ago
Reply to  Gwern Gwynfil

I was referring to the actual parties, and not necessarily their support. However, I cannot completely separate from responsibility those who vote knowingly, and often willingly for a fascist party.

Glen
Glen
8 days ago

Like all previous Senedd elections the real winners will be the disillusioned and the apathetic.

hdavies15
hdavies15
8 days ago
Reply to  Glen

I don’t think they win anything but they certainly influence results. Any party that can fire up some enthusiasm to get voting participation up from below 50% to 60-70% could be onto a winner.

Geraint
Geraint
20 minutes ago
Reply to  Glen

Turn out in the 2024 election was 59.7% a drop of 7.6% since 2019 according to the HoC Library. Turn outs since 2001 have been consistently significantly lower than the whole period since the First World War apart from 1918 when under 60% of the population voted. There have only been two general elections since all men and women were given the right to vote where the percentage that voted below 60%, they were 2001 and 2024. In both cases those who did not vote outnumbered those that voted for the governing party. So if we follow your line of… Read more »

H James
H James
8 days ago

The popularity of Reform UK in Cymru is chilling, not only for Muslims and people of colour, but for those who believe in the future of Wales as any kind of nation. Reform poses an existential threat for us as a nation (as much as, if not more than the Tories are). Its British Nationalism goes beyond Unionism and is firmly rooted in English Supremacism. Any Welsh supporters of Reform UK need to realise that promotion of our language and culture will be superficial at best (so we can all feel marginally less ashamed for 80 minutes at each rugby… Read more »

Llyn
Llyn
8 days ago
Reply to  H James

I have no doubt that a Reform UK Welsh Government will attack Welsh democracy, minorities, the NHS free at the point of need, any idea of any Welsh identity beyond that intrinsically British (for example, Welsh army regiments) and (at best) be entirely disinterested in the fate of the Welsh language. Indeed I would not be surprised if there will be any Reform MSs who will be able to speak Welsh.

Jeff
Jeff
8 days ago
Reply to  Llyn

They absolutely will. The senedd is just an opportunity to get a another platform to perform on.
Far right are dismantlers. They pull stuff apart then walk away. Nige is prime example and when challenged on Question Time over his part in brexit, and he had a national audience to shine and explain how good brexit is, he tried to shout down the questioner yelling “boring” and so on.

Expect disruption if they get seats in wales. Orders from the party owner.

Angus Eickhoff
Angus Eickhoff
8 days ago

Plaid Cymru is not a nationalist party. It stands for self determination for Wales, not nationalism.

Meanwhile……..worth a watch…… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CMXfpiWfso

Last edited 8 days ago by Angus Eickhoff
John Ellis
John Ellis
7 days ago

I heard Darren Millar, ‘setting out his stall’ as the new leader of the Conservatives in the Senedd, saying that his priority in the immediate aftermath of the next Senedd election would be to displace Labour as the party of government in Cardiff Bay.

Which suggests to me that in 2026 the Tories will very readily seek to govern in coalition with Reform UK if the numbers after the election make that possible. That’ll give us a very different Wales, politically speaking.

Jeff
Jeff
7 days ago
Reply to  John Ellis

Reform are very dangerous. They promise what the crowd want to hear, and you now have the party owner that boasts about being in trumps circle, you don’t get there unless you are prepared to play trumps tune and ignore the state of that human. And we could see musk dump a load of loot into the farage’s back pocket. Any deal will come with strings not least from foreign interests. The same musk that ruins a platform fuelled by hate and he will want to look after his investment. Tory’s, Labour, Plaid and Libs need to take note. Get… Read more »

John Ellis
John Ellis
7 days ago
Reply to  Jeff

I agree entirely. But I also, unfortunately, believe that what will be will be. What really shook me was the revelation arising from a series of opinion polls conducted by Electoral Calculus a week or two back which suggested that if there were a Westminster election at that time, Reform UK’s candidate in the Llanelli constituency would be returned to Westminster. Llanelli has been a constituency which has continuously returned a Labour MP for just about a century. But I don’t think that it’s any sort of coincidence that this polling result happened soon after the ultimately abortive proposal from… Read more »

Jeff
Jeff
7 days ago
Reply to  John Ellis

The results should scare the parties, I hope in private they have a plan and are aware. Not sure they do.

Our press is also woeful, in the main. Its not good when we have several main self interested paper owners with clout and 2 large national broadcasters ineffective. BBC needs to clean house in the news department and stop othering and ITV need to get peston to ask shorter sharper questions, but go for the throat on reform. Nige don’t like being in press arena’s he cannot control. There are still excellent ones out there.

Last edited 7 days ago by Jeff
John Ellis
John Ellis
7 days ago
Reply to  Jeff

I think that the BBC these days is especially disappointing. I recall the late Robin Day’s robust and forensic interviewing of our politicians back in the ’70s and ’80s. They have no one like that these days.

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
7 days ago
Reply to  John Ellis

Our own Vincent Kane was pretty formidable too. I particularly remember one where he interviewed the then Welsh Secretary Nicholas Edwards. Unfortunately news and current affairs at the BBC have fallen hostage to political censorship, which is sad when not so very long ago both the news and current affairs on the BBC challenged the government and frequently broadcast news about events and facts that made life difficult for a sitting government. Anyone remember the early eighties regular announcements of the latest unemployment figures, plus news about the government’s decision to change the way those figures were counted so that… Read more »

John Ellis
John Ellis
6 days ago
Reply to  Padi Phillips

You and I must be of a similar vintage – I well remember Vincent Kane on on the radio fronting ‘Good Morning, Wales!’ in my earliest days living here, as a student back in the mid-1960s. I believe that you’re right in your suggestion that ‘news and current affairs at the BBC have fallen hostage to political censorship’. I think that decline really began when Alistair Campbell went in furious pursuit of both the BBC and the media in general in the context of Andrew Gilligan and the strange death of David Kelly. My sense is that once Lord Hutton… Read more »

Last edited 6 days ago by John Ellis
Jeff
Jeff
6 days ago
Reply to  Padi Phillips

Mr Kane, now there is a blast from the past. I liked him.

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
7 days ago
Reply to  Jeff

Our own Vincent Kane was pretty formidable too. I particularly remember one where he interviewed the then Welsh Secretary Nicholas Edwards. Unfortunately news and current affairs at the BBC have fallen hostage to political censorship, which is sad when not so very long ago both the news and current affairs on the BBC challenged the government and frequently broadcast news about events and facts that made life difficult for a sitting government. Anyone remember the early eighties regular announcements of the latest unemployment figures, plus news about the government’s decision to change the way those figures were counted so that… Read more »

Jeff
Jeff
7 days ago
Reply to  John Ellis

To add, nige’s chum in the US has recently kicked off on what he will do from day 1. Massed deportations and cancelling birth certificates (ones for born in the US but parents not US). That is just part of the harm about to hit the US but that is right up Nige’s alley. UK press need to go to town on this but how many fear press pass loss what Trumps pick for the FBI will do (who is off his rocker).

Rob
Rob
7 days ago

I wonder would a potential Reform/Tory administration in Cardiff result in a rise of anti-devolution sentiment coming from the left rather than the right? There are plenty within the Labour party who are no fans of devolution: Chris Bryant, Neil Kinnock, the late Ann Clwyd etc. Some within Labour arrogantly believe that it is their god given right to be in government in Wales, and some on the left reject any kind of nationalist sentiment (civic or otherwise). Take attitudes to Europe for example. Thatcher and Heath were very much pro-Europe, whereas opposition to it, came from the left (Michael… Read more »

Y Cymro
Y Cymro
7 days ago

You find Wales has a habit of self harming itself. When the right-wing rule Wales , usually from Westminster, they use & abuse us leaving our communities a devastated apathetic wasteland void of hope. UK Labour on the other hand just maintain Welsh poverty opting to ticket around the edges They offer us more of the same poverty rule. To them England is their priority not eradicating child poverty, fair funding Wales or devolving more power to our Senedd. That’s the sad reality. Anyway, if the Welsh public need any example what Reform UK would be like in the Senedd… Read more »

ynysbb
ynysbb
6 days ago

We need reform to rescue us from the abyss. I think a lot of people feel that way.

Jeff
Jeff
6 days ago
Reply to  ynysbb

You mean brexit for example? That is an abyss, who is part responsible for this mess? You task that reform owner to do something the same again?

will tell
will tell
5 days ago
Reply to  Jeff

Strange abyss. Before brexit we had a free trade agreement with Europe and freedom of movement. After brexit we have a free trade agreement with Europe but no freedom of movement. Wales in particular voted for brexit. For once the will of the the people was listened to.

Jeff
Jeff
5 days ago
Reply to  will tell

No, we don’t have what you allude to. In no measurable way does it compare. This was why the Tory party tried to do deals sending the lettuce and working class Kemi around the globe to try to do deals, that is why that berk from the 18th Century tried to ask sun readers to think up benefits he can enact when the liar in chief made him a minster. And wales did not vote, this is lazy. People in the UK voted, many did not vote and many voted to remain. farage runs away from those questions. But brexit… Read more »

will tell
will tell
4 days ago
Reply to  Jeff

I am not sure if it’s a good idea to refer to people as ‘berks’ or ‘liars’ or to spout misleading in formation. As I understand it the majority of people in Wales did vote for brexit. Also, no tariffs are charged on goods coming from or going to Europe. Simple and accurate. Of course it is also correct to say the people of the UK voted for brexit. Maybe a softer brexit would have been achieved if Corbyn hadn’t prevented it.

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