How to get Independence done – a starter for Plaid Cymru
Llew Gruffudd
You can’t just keep knocking Plaid Cymru. They have lost their way and a bit of sympathy is in order. They seem to have given up on independence as the way forward. At least for the next generation or so.
Even then?
At the start of devolution they gave up on Independence and from then on it was all downhill.
Recently, in spite of an upward movement for Welsh Independence, they seem to have lost all ambition.
There was the Commission on Independence. A route to Independence Adam Price called it.
A real horror story.
A federal UK to ease the way was the central theme .
Independence didn’t get much of a boost in that document.
The recent thought of the day is parity with Scotland.
Although why parity with a nation whose economy is equally struggling? All their apparent benefits have made little significant difference there.
In between Plaid do make the odd reference to Independence, but they don’t seem great at multitasking.
The future
Plaid is now getting all excited about being in government. An opinion poll has got them all hot and bothered.
So they have reached their ambition without really trying.
However just to put a dampener on the mood.
The election of 2026 is still a year and a half away and such talk is extremely premature.
But what if it happened, or a more likely scenario is Welsh Labour, with Plaid taking a place in government.
With either of those scenarios, what would be the great benefits to the Welsh nation.To the Welsh public?
None
No party in Wales, or any combination in government will make a significant difference under the present constitutional arrangements.
The same financial constraints will be in place.
Westminster will still be the place where the rules are made.
The present Wales Finance Minister, last heard of as First Minister, has been warbling about the extra money his pals in Westminster have given Wales.
It only came to Wales because they are spending a great deal more in England.
If they don’t spend, Wales doesn’t get it.
What a way for a nation to plan its future.
Take away the amount lost through inflation.
Share the gift across all spending departments in Wales.
In the excitement, he has forgotten the 2000+ nurse shortage, the 5000 care worker shortage, shortage of teachers and teaching assistants, hospitals, schools and public buildings in urgent need of repair or replacement..The debt of local authorities and health boards.
Divide that into the gift from your Westminster partners.
Whether it be a Plaid pressed Welsh Labour, or Plaid itself making the plea, [ or any other combination ] the answer is going to be a resounding negative.
The Westminster Labour government has little money now. By 2026, mid term, it will have even less.
Wales will continue, whatever the makeup of the Senedd , to be a very low priority.
And what if?
What if, with all the planets aligning, Plaid fails to make the breakthrough?
With Welsh Labours unpopularity growing, The Tories slide and Reform taking votes from everywhere, there won’t be a better time.
So if they are disappointed and there’s a very strong likelihood they will be, where do they go? A junior partner in a Welsh Labour government deal. Or try to claim the Independence mantle.
However to take to Independence as a result of failure, would be a further blow to their credibility.
So why not do it now. Why not go for it with a platform of Independence.
It would be difficult for them, as they haven’t much practice in that area.
So in the spirit of seasonal good cheer, a bit of help.
How to get Independence done?
The first thing is to get rid of the old hangup, that first we must get a pro Independence Senedd majority.
First we must get a public pro Independence majority.
Do that and the rest will follow.
Even the arch Unionist Mark Drakeford said he would respect the will of the people on Independence.
Even if you take that with a very large pinch of salt, any politician that values their seat, would be foolish to resist such a public majority.
So there’s the start. Take control of the narrative.
A large part of the Welsh public are seeking change.
A large part of the Welsh public, a majority, believe that Wales is too small, too poor and too dependent.
That’s what they have been told. That’s the headlines.
So put them straight on that.
Wales’ potential as an Independent nation is the message.
The people are concerned about their pensions, wages, education of their children, housing and hospital appointments, not a nationalistic rant.
They need to be reassured in these areas,
That Wales can earn the money to improve their wellbeing.
They need to be informed.
The facts are there, such as the value of Wales’ natural resources and how the money invested will bring economic growth. [ Plaid may need a bit of help here. Big numbers ]
The renewable energy predators from across the bridge can see it. Why can’t we?
We don’t know because we haven’t been informed.
That’s the job of Plaid Cymru, The Party of Wales.
The Union
It’s not just the benefits of Independence that need to be stressed, but the perils of continuing to be part of the Union.
The fact that the UK/England [ they are one and the same ] is a failing economy and economic policies, that Wales has no control over, is making things worse.
The Welsh public should be informed that their State Pensions are significantly lower than the average of comparable countries.
That their disposable incomes, the money they have to spend after paying the essentials, is lower than comparable countries.
That business productivity, that fuels economic growth, is lower than comparable countries.
They should be told that it is because the UK pensions, disposable income and productivity is less than comparable countries and that Wales, by being part of the Union, mirrors those shortcomings.
They should be told that the billions of pounds spent on Trident, a nuclear deterrent that can’t be used without US consent.
The recent aircraft carrier, so that Brittania can rule the waves.
That billions of pounds were given to financial institutions, based in London, to save them from a catastrophe of their own making.
A multi billion railway line so that travellers in England can knock twenty minutes off a north to south journey.
They should be told that Wales is paying a share of this, at the expense of healthcare, education and local services in Wales.
Telling them is the job of Plaid Cymru, The Party of Wales.
The fact that they don’t know is a failure of that party.
Independence
So once the Welsh public recognise the advantages of an Independent Wales and the folly of remaining in a failing Union, the opinion polls will reflect the public will.
It will suddenly dawn on Plaid that they are onto something here and Welsh Labour politicians will be falling over each other to pronounce that they have never really been against Independence.
A majority of the public in favour and a Senedd that has suddenly become pro Independence.
A referendum.
Two years transition to sort out the technicalities and Wales is a sovereign state.
Plaid and its supporters continually whine that they don’t have the media time to present such facts.
That is visibly not the case. The leader and his team are regularly in view, it’s just not using the opportunity to best effect.
They use it to come out with the same old headline slogans that no one believes of how they are going to change things..
If Plaid were the largest party in 2026, under the present constitutional system, it would make not a jot of difference to the welfare, wellbeing or future hopes of the Welsh people.
So why not put your effort into Independence. It’s so straightforward that I’m surprised you haven’t thought of it before. and you really have nothing to lose.
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Riddle me this: many seem to think that PC has independence on the ‘back burner’.
But a direct appeal to Rhun ap Iorwerth illicit this?
“Hi. Not sure what “putting independence on the back burner” means. I’ve always believed that Wales’ potential will only be reached as a normal, independent nation. Been committed to that belief & trying to bring others on that journey all my life. It’s about building a fairer more prosperous future.”
I’m confused.
Yes he says that. It tends to end there though doesn’t it? We cant say there’s any substantive discussions or actions by the party on the topic can we?
It’s just a performative commitment/tokenism.
Saying and doing, are very different things.
Happy to help.
Spot on article I agree 100% . Plaid have pushed independence to the side, barely a mention in their general election manifesto and not a whisper since. Campaigning for devolvement of The Crown Estate or HS2 consequential is valid but its not campaigning for independence its tweaking with the current constitutional arrangements in a broken system and simply maintains the status quo It was the rise in support for YesCymru, which finally forced Plaid to get off the fence and put independence firmly on the political agenda. Politicians listen to the public(eventually) because they rely on their votes to be… Read more »
Communication – that is the key. The article is dead right, the people of Cymru need to be told about these issues. They need to be informed about the benefits of independence and the negatives of being part of the Union through leaflets, newspaper articles (In paper’s such as – The South Wales Echo, The Daily Post, Western Mail and Western Telegraph), numerous social media sites, regular TV and radio interviews, rallies and local public consultations. Get the message out there, start a trend, get people talking, get them thinking what if? To win independence we first need to win… Read more »
I have had plenty to say about the failures of Plaid Cymru and – not surprisingly – agree with every word in this article. The “Party of Wales” gets excited about HS2 – essentially an accounting entry – the crown estate and little else. What bothers me about these entirely irrelevant issues is the failure – as pointed out in the article – to do the research and present the arguments. Through talks I have given across Wales, in articles and meetings, I have presented detailed research on the present state of the economy (we are paying our way), in… Read more »
Llew, you say “A referendum….(then)…Two years transition to sort out the technicalities and Wales is a sovereign state.” This is a chicken and egg thing. First point is that noone, not the Scots not us in Wales, will vote in numbers for Indy if the ‘technicalities’ aren’t in place. The plan has to pass the Andrew Neil test, on currency, public debt and everything else. You could hold a referendum first. But your pro-vote will be smaller if you haven’t done the technicalities. After you’ve done the Ts, you need another referendum to approve the result. Me, I’d do a… Read more »
You have misunderstood the article. The Andrew Neil test, as you put it, is part of which Plaid Cymru has to do on a daily basis. How you are going to pay for the new Wales being the most important, If they were seriously the Party of Independence, Plaid would already be working on such things as a simple constitution to start with. Draft legislation for a Central Bank, currency, legal systems, taxation systems. All subjects covered in previous opinion pieces. Try not to complicate a simple offering My article is about the process of information that Plaid should be… Read more »
The political platform could be very simple. But very very different from the left-based offering which has not worked. It could be centre based. And involve a coalition including everyone but Labour. It could include Reform, properly handled. Prepare Constitutional Convention ie discuss plan for Indy (which Reform might oppose but might not. Anyway Propel beat Reform in Splott). The other main planks would be: rescind woke legislation & guidance, plan to keep all taxes from Wales in Wales, sort out policing in Wales, take not just Crown Estate but Court buildings Estate. Getting money out of London not a… Read more »
Wales has been both Liberal and Left in its past, the question is where it is now, along with the rest of the UK. We are on new terrain, where politicians are largely despised and “grand programs” seen as yet another wind filled pocket lining exercise. Brexit was that “high spot” of BS and Starmer’s trumpeted no change austerity the last gasp of the Labour “Crusade”. Reform scores massively because it amplifies popular anger, cynicism and scepticism, we are all in on what “they” are up to, and the cheeky chap in the wax jacket is the new “hero” if… Read more »
Please can you provide a few examples of “woke legislation”.
Fair question. I will draw up a list and post it on Facebook page Convention.cymru
Try legislation to make us (proudly, apparently) the first anti-racist nation.
I’m insulted. We have, and remain a welcoming, racist free nation and will remain so without the need for this utter nonsense legislation.
Senedd members. Find something else to do, you could start with the economy…
What is the legislation to make us an anti-racism nation?
This is legislation proposed for the Senedd.
What is the name of the Bill?
Do your homework. Look it up and press coverage.
Why can’t you enlighten me as to the legislation which you insist is proposed by the Senedd? Perhaps it doesn’t exist?
Try looking!
You could look at Convention.cymru on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=convention.cymru But to save you the trouble here is a list, just for starters LEGISLATION Passed by Senedd Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) act 2015 Vague goals, unnecessary Commissioner, advisory panel and bureaucratic tinkering Food Additives, Flavourings, Enzymes and Extraction Solvents (Wales) Regulations 2013 The Abergele Martyrs did not die to achieve a fizzy drinks law at the expense of laws to defend Welsh Steel production Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Act 2020 Ditto. Wales is/was not the land of the cane The Restricted Roads (20 mph Speed Limit) (Wales)… Read more »
Do you genuinely believe this? “Racist free nation”? I’ve lived in SE England for most of my adult life and North Wales for 8 years now. I’ve witnessed far more incidents of (mostly casual) racism in the last 8 than the previous 25. In the online world, I’ve been told to F off back to England for daring to opine on the subject of separation from the UK. Indeed, in this very article, the author refers to ‘predators from across the bridge’. It’s not the most welcoming of phrases you’ll ever hear. I don’t disagree that the leglislation is unnecessary… Read more »
I don’t think its appropriate for me to comment on a single case.
Mind, I am curious about your “opining” on separation. I take it your not in favour?
It’s you choice to not comment but you must recognise that describing Wales as a ‘Racist free nation’ is a nonsense. My opinions on separation are entirely irrelevant to this point but as you ask… I am instictively against, I am pro unions be that the EU, the United Kingdom or whatever. That said, if I saw a solid argument that I believed in, who knows.
The very fact that you’ve chosen to comment on my original contribution says something about you?
You moved from southeast England to north Wales. Any attempt to learn the language of the people around you?
Is it actually any of your business, as an English incomer, whether we the Welsh people want a better future outside the union?
If you’re suffering so much there’s always the train back to the south east.
Let me know, I’ll happily contribute to the fare.
The glorious New Wales is already looking splendid. How to win friends and influence indeed. Along with proposing to name our glittering new Independent currency after the moon in Welsh (surely this is a Wales Watch satire, throwing boots at the moon etc), a piece advocating vastly greater communication of the “message” ends up telling the sceptical to take a hike. Literally. “You’re not from round here are you?” Brilliant.
I’m lost. You’re point?
Mike is perfectly entitled to his views, I just find it a bit rich, to say the least, that an incomer from south east England sees any criticism of his views as “racist.”
I’m an income from Englsnd. It is my business because I live in Cymru and I want independence. Dismissing English heritage residents of our country is a sure fire way of making sure independence doesn’t happen.
If you take statements out of context and brand them racist, then you do really have a problem. The predators across the bridge, that you quote, is clearly aimed at institutions, governments. not the people. The follow up comment also clearly explained that, But then I suppose if you want to see a racist around every corner, it’s easy to do so.
I described your comments as unwelcoming rather than racist but, like you say, you see what you want to see.
I actually replied to your post yesterday but the thread mysteriously disappeared. You again referred to predators and referenced £10bn per year that could otherwise be spend on services in Wales – Who are these predators and is an independent Wales open to external investment? As you allude to, context is important here so we need to have it.
You did use my comment in the context of racism in your reply to Dr John Ball. I thought I explained in detail in my response. The predators are those taking the £10 billion which is raised from Wales coastal waters. from Wales leaving Wales without the means to invest in its economy, infrastructure and services. External investment is welcome in Wales as long as the proper returns remain in Wales. I however, am an advocate of Wales natural resources, water, energy being publicly owned by Wales. If you have properly read my other opinion pieces, you will see that… Read more »
There is a total absence of leadership in the independence movement, no leading individual/s are driving it on. It’s just happening organically and that has a ceiling which we’re at, unless there’s another drastic and sudden reduction in living standards. As far as Plaid goes, rhetoric on being supportive of Indy doesn’t really do anything. It’s just that, noise. When none of the policy points or arguments are being framed through the prism of independence it means the debate is not broadening its appeal or reach. There isn’t anything that platforms the arguments for independence either anymore, the latest iterations… Read more »
What currency would an independent Wales use on day one? The British pound or a Welsh one? One of the “technicalities” that needs a straightforward answer as it applies to wages, pensions and, quite a big technicality, the repayment of UK national debt. This is probably the key question which scuppered the Scottish Indy referendum in 2014 and isn’t even mentioned in this article.
Oh, and don’t even suggest the Euro. Wales would have to have a viable currency and meet certain economic criteria before being able to apply for EU membership.
Absolutely spot on, Iain R. I think the answer is use the Pound Sterling, particularly if what you have (to start with) is Dominion Status. Makes everything simpler and more doable. But I’d defer to Dr.John Ball. Where is he when you need him?
I’m here!
The Isle of Mann isn’t part of the UK, yet has the Manx £ linked to the UK £. I’d suggest this is the initial direction seriously looked at.
You’re quite right that the required support for Indy won’t materialise until the question marks around finances are addressed or seriously looked into and proposed.
The Isle of Man is a particular case and not easily transferable to Wales. The Manx pound is as you say linked to sterling, however the Manx pound is not legal tender outside the I o M. Secondly the Isle of Man gets significant financial help from the UK. A third of it’s income comes from the UK.Further, it gets much of its income, not from economic development, but in it’s role as a tax haven. There are increasing political questions being asked regarding the UK government financing an offshore tax haven.
Indeed, I’m not supportive of being an identikit IoM post indy. But their relationship with the UK has plenty we can adopt and adapt to our own situation; currency being one that can be broadly adopted and amended (legal tender in UK being the point to amend, although they can currently be exchanged at any bank). There’s a lot to look at as far as Mann goes, most of the usual questions about Indy have been fully or partially addressed by their example. Post Indy, let’s not kid ourselves much of our income will be from our relationship with the… Read more »
Getting distracted by currency is a sure sign that you are easily put off getting into a forward gear on separation. Use their £ for as long as you need to and as for that National Debt we might have to settle for about 5% of it less a deduction for all the extracted goods and services – especially water- for which we never received a bean, in fact it went enrich Corporates that are part of the corrupt network of UK financial institutions.
These are issues that should be answered by Plaid Cymru.
I have addressed them all in my many talks and articles and do so in my new book, hopefully early next year.
Please put a pound or two aside for and enlightening read.
Wales would not be Independent without it’s own currency. No Central Bank to raise finance, Policy decisions continue to be made in Westminster, unable to set it’s own interest rates or currency exchange, no control over monetary policy or borrowing. The essential tools to grow the Welsh economy. There are some that argue for an interim. Wales own currency, but not until its economy is stronger. It is difficult however, to see how Wales would get to that stage without the economic, financial and legislative tools to do so. We really must have a bit more confidence. 163 of the… Read more »
Unfortunately, given your excellent analysis of the problems and indeed the future, in this respect you are wrong. There is no time or space to discuss this, suffice to say that many, very successful nations use another’s currency. Your detail is incorrect. Firstly, there are 193 states represented at the UN and two with observer status; The Vatican and Palestine. The Bank of England would indeed set interest rates but the reality is that the setting of such is becoming more of an international phenomena. Currency exchange would not be an issue or monetary policy, this is simply tied to… Read more »
I greatly respect your expertise and commitment, but as you say this is not the place for detailed analysis and we will have to remain in disagreement.
I do however think it rather pedantic to challenge the detail over the error of one nation in the total of Independent nations. As for the rest without detailed arguments to the contrary I remain confident in my view.
May I say in reply that in every other respect I am in total agreement. Plaid Cymru has become irrelevant, I might even say cowardly. It is indeed a sad state of affairs when you, I and others present not just criticisms of the party but present positive ideas for moving forward (especially and notably in this article)…landing on deaf years. I’m sorry you feel I’m being “pedantic.” I’m afraid it comes with the territory. I’ve learned over the years (perhaps too Pedantically???) to ensure that facts and numbers are correct. Comes from being an economist! Mind, I await the… Read more »
Respect
I should have made it clear in my earlier response.
Nothing would give me more pleasure than our new nation state having its own currency.
Indeed, I have even suggested the name – Arianwen, the traditional name for the moon.
I am however a realist and certainly in the early days, we may well have to hold our noses. Currency is one of them.
That’s my problem i’m not very good at the holding noses thing. Your mention of your naming of currency hit a chord though. What a good way for Plaid to promote awareness of Independence. A national competition to find a name for a Welsh currency. If only Plaid had thought of it.
Too busy farting around trying to be “all things to all people” ending up being not a lot to anyone.
Do you really expect Plaid Cymru to think of anything???
Interestingly and sadly, the word has for some reason fallen out of favour, replaced by Lluad.
I think it’s a brilliant idea, sadly as an economist I can’t – for the time being anyway – see an alternative to using the pound. Hold nose!
I for one think that Plaid’s shift to move independence down the order of priorities makes perfect sense. Independence is far from being anywhere near the settled will of the Welsh people so to make it front and centre of the platform going into the Senedd elections would be madness. It didn’t work well for Adam Price. Andrew RT Davies’ Tories were far more popular. I also have issues with the HS2 money obsession. Many people in Wales will say that Labour have way more chance of persuading the Labour UK Gov to give us that money that is rightfully… Read more »
It is because of Plaids tendency to comfort politics, that sees them as the third party in the Senedd. The Party of Wales, the third party.. The ‘settled will of the Welsh people ‘ is such , due to the failure of Plaid. The failure to connect, to communicate, as the article highlights, the benefits of Independence and the perils of the status quo. The history of Plaid and Independence is one of distancing themselves from it because they thought it wouldn’t benefit them. And here again they go into an election with no distinct policies, hoping for the unpopularity… Read more »
The country most likely to leave the union first is Northern Ireland. They have far more in common with the Republic than they do with Great Britain, both culturally and geographically. The Brexit negotiations regarding Northern Ireland were a real headache for all sides, and the outcomes of Brexit will probably make the Republic economically better off than the North. The London establishment, including the Tory party would secretly be quite happy for Irish reunification to happen, even though they will never admit it. Its the unionist community who are preventing it from happening, but they are slowly becoming a… Read more »
Welsh Independence will always be a priority to Plaid Cymru. It’s how to achieve those aims is important. First, you need strong foundations. It’s no good building on pillars made of sand. Those are favoured by Labour & Conservatives. I think since the inception of devolution Labour took advantage of the Welsh electorate. They assumed correctly that no matter what they did in office in Cardiff or London voters here would still elect Welsh & UK Labour members to the Senedd & Westminster. And with 27 years of Welsh Labour rule fast approaching, their numerous manifestos over the years promising… Read more »
My problem is that I don’t believe that Plaid will ever be in office following the path they are following. Yes you can rightly criticise the other parties, but Plaid offering nothing different won’t cut it. As my article says, even if Plaid were in office, under the present constitutional arrangement it would make little difference. The system doesn’t allow it. Now Independence does offer something different. Properly presented, it offers hope for the future. That’s the only sensible direction for Plaid, Gather the facts, make the argument, present it to the people. .If they could only get over the… Read more »
A petulant and churlish opinion piece from someone who, as far as I can see, has contributed nothing of value to the national debate.
The campaign group calling for independence, Yes Cymru, is calling for the devolution of the Crown Estate (just like PC). According to the logic of the author of this piece, this Yes Cymru has given up on independence.
Everyone who supports independence supports the devolution of the Crown Estate and for parity with Scotland – except, I suppose, for the author.
Pathetic seems an apt word.
Oh dear I seem to have struck a nerve. I don’t agree that the article has contributed nothing. It has sparked many interesting and contrasting views and comments. Even those who have read the article and comments, without leaving one themselves will have taken something from it. So in some modest way it has contributed to the debate. Something that Plaid Cymru has failed to do. With regard to your linking Plaid and Yes Cymru, that is a pretty dubious argument. Yes Cymru are a voluntary, organic movement, which would be expected to change direction and priorities from time to… Read more »
In order to get public support for independence, first the public have to see some benefit from devolution. After 25 years, it is very hard to demonstrate what benefit devolution has brought other than a warm feeling of Welshness. I cannot think of a single devolved matter that is better now than before devolution, or that is better in Wales than in England. If the Senedd has failed over the last 25 years to achieve anything other than being a nice building from which to fly a Welsh flag, how are the population going to be persuaded that Wales would… Read more »
The issue is not the Senedd, the issue is the policies of the Welsh Labour Government. If you believe that their policies are harming Wales then you can vote them out at the next election. For example if the UK government was really incompetent I wouldn’t say “strip Westminster of its independence, lets be governed from Brussels instead.” I would vote them out. Wales should be fully devolved as any other nation in the UK and has the right to persue independence like any other nation, but if the Welsh Government are performing poorly (and granted they do make bad… Read more »
I’m not disputing the right to pursue independence, I am simply saying that the best way to convince people that independence is in their interests is to show them the benefits of devolution. Unfortunately, 25 years of devolution has delivered precious few benefits. Bringing in the smoking ban three months sooner than England is all I can think of, but I’m interested to hear from anybody who can point to any other tangible benefits of devolution. The decline in the performance of the NHS and education system in Wales compared to England does not persuade me that Welsh Labour should… Read more »
One could make the same argument regarding Westminster, what is the benefit of remaining part of the union when Westminster is continually failing Wales? The benefit of devolution is that we can elect our own government and vote them out if they are failing us. Current polls are projecting Labour will make huge losses to both Plaid and Reform next time around, so watch this space. But those who put the blame Wales’ issues on devolution rather than on Labour are doing themselves no favours at all because they are getting Welsh Labour off the hook.