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Mapping out Welsh independence – what would it look like

31 Oct 2024 7 minute read
Picture by Llywelyn 2000 (CC BY-SA 4.0).

Llew Gruffudd

Wales independence. Will the border be hard or soft? Or just a line on a map?

Prior to the Cold War and the fall of the Berlin Wall, the border between East and West Germany had a ploughed strip along its length. This was regularly inspected by the East German military to see if people had illegally crossed.

From the hysteria surrounding independence, some seem convinced that it will be similar along Offas Dyke. (Perhaps to catch English pensioners, heading for life on the Welsh coast!)

Presently, the border between Wales and England/UK, is a line on the map.

There are no fences, walls or trenches. Any future obstacles will be new and entirely man made.

For many however, more generally, the questions are:
Will there be a hard border?
How will I get to work in England?
Will I be able to shop in England?
How am I going to move my goods?

Restrictions

All voiced as concerns that life would be more difficult after independence. And all stated as if Wales was the only country to ever face these issues

The border is defined as hard or soft, not because of walls or fences, but as to the degree of restriction to trade and freedom of movement.

However it is futile to pretend that nothing will change. The question is. How much of a change and will the benefits outweigh these changes?

First some context.

People crossing the border for work, business and pleasure

Approximately 90,000 people cross the border from Wales to work in the UK – predominantly England.
This equates to 6% of the Wales workers.
You would expect this figure to reduce significantly as an independent Wales economy grows.
Approximately 48000 people cross into Wales to work.

There is also a free flow of people crossing for business and pleasure.

So how would this change, post independence.

Some talk, including the recent Commission on the Constitution, of a hard border being imposed by ‘a belligerent’ England. Meaning difficulties visiting relatives or for pleasure. What nonsense.

The question for those prophesying doom is – Why?

Why would England/UK impose unnecessary costs and movement restrictions, not only on Wales, but on its own citizens?

Why? Because England would be a bit miffed at Wales breaking free, or that they didn’t get all their own way in negotiations?

Would they impose costs on the almost £30 billions of trade they do with Wales?

Risk difficulties with vital water supplies?

Jeopardise the supply of renewable energy that Wales would have in abundance?

All because they are a bit miffed?

Logically and reasonably there would be little change.

Borders

Citizens can cross the US/Canadian border for business or pleasure, by simply showing a driving licence or similar.

The people of Sweden and Norway, one a member of the EU the other not, have unrestricted movement by agreement. Indeed much of the 1600 km border is unmanned.

This ID free agreement extends to other Nordic countries. Denmark, Finland and Iceland.

The UK presently has its own free movement agreement. The Common Travel Area (CTA)
This allows freedom of movement between the nations of the UK, England, N Ireland, Scotland and Wales, as well as the Channel Islands and Isle of Man (who are not governed by Westminster) and the Republic of Ireland (an independent nation and member of the EU)
There is no logical reason why the same freedoms should not extend to Wales on independence.

Unlike many negative examples raised to illustrate difficulties, Wales is not at war with the UK. It does not have a standing army ready to protect its borders.

It merely wishes to work under a constitutional arrangement of its own choosing.

There are many precedents to assure the Welsh public that a border should be no significant impediment on independence.

Not least, the protest from the English Midlands if their government introduced any obstacle to their annual pilgrimage to Trecco Bay.

Trade post independence

Some perspective.

A little over 50% of Wales business output is sold internally, that is within Wales. Therefore no tariffs or border checks.

A further 20% is exported, predominantly to the EU. These Wales exporters are already subject to the regulations of those countries.

Which leaves 30% of Wales trade going to the rest of the UK and it is this trade that could be affected by independence. But to what extent?

After independence Wales’ trading relationships with the remaining UK will most assuredly change.

The recent history of Wales’ industrial base has been heavily biassed on supplying parts for businesses in England.

There has been a woeful lack of investing in and attracting the industries of the future, space sciences, semiconductors, transport technology, etc and generally in innovation, research and development.

When this decline is reversed, Wales’ industrial base will change, and will become more concentrated in the future, green technology industry and more international.

Wales will become less dependent on trade with the next door neighbour and the costs of international trade, will be compensated by the higher value nature of such trade.

Resources

With independence Wales will take control of its considerable resources, particularly renewable energy from offshore wind and tidal and marine energy,

In addition to providing a secure supply of relatively cheap energy to its people and businesses, Wales will become a major energy exporter.

This energy will not be subject to tariffs and barriers as other commodities.

As well as Wales exports to the UK, Wales also buys approximately the same value of imports from them. It is therefore in no one’s interests to raise unnecessary barriers to this trade.

Wales exports to the UK are valued at £26.5 billion (UK Department for Internal Market)

The UK average tariff rate is 3.9%, which itself is higher than the average for all nations of 2.6%.

If the ‘ belligerent ‘ UK was to impose their average, in full, on Wales imports, it would raise a little over £1 billion. An unwelcome cost to Wales, but certainly not an economy breaker, or deterrent to independence.

From England’s side. Is such little gain worthwhile, set against the possible retaliatory hassle?

European Union

Wales, on independence, will become a member of the World Trade Organisation (WTO). The UK is already a member.

The purpose of that organisation is to promote the maximum freedom of trade. It prevents its members imposing unnecessary, arbitrary and unfair charges, restrictions and tariffs on others. This will apply to trade between an Independent Wales and UK.

Whether an independent Wales applies to rejoin the EU will be a decision for a Wales government, weighing up the costs and benefits and unlike now, Wales will be free to make agreements and associations, with whom it wishes, at mutual benefits. The change of costs of trading with England will be one of those considerations.

Some want certainty and some use the uncertainties as a weapon, as further obstacles to independence. Such negativity.

Staying in the Union is filled with uncertainties, but based on experience, Wales’ wellbeing is unlikely to improve by doing so.

The reality is that border issues are part of any negotiations that will inevitably come with independence.

There is no reason why Wales should fear the outcomes and should spend its time until independence, untangling its ties. Data and policy presently presented on an England/Wales basis would be a start.

Border issues are one more area where Wales should be concerned with developing its own policies, preparing for independence and less concerned by what England may or may not do.

One certainty is that if the Welsh people want independence, for all the huff and puff and project fear, it will happen and you can still have tea with Aunty Em in Bristol.


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45 Comments
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Dai Rob
Dai Rob
1 month ago

Excellent article!!!

Y Cymro
Y Cymro
1 month ago

What people forget that Cymru is a political prisoner of the English crown still. We were invaded in 1283 & annexed in 1535. In fact. We are still an independent country. The only difference is. Gone is Edward ‘The Hammer’s’ iron ring fortification. Our prison isn’t made of stone. It has no physical bars. Our prison cell is our own inability to break free the invisible chains that bind us to a false one-sided British union created by England for the benefit of England. And until we wake up from our slumber and realise that once we were the Saudi… Read more »

John
John
1 month ago

A logical, unemotional analysis – well done.
This shoud be read by as many people as posssible.

Idris
Idris
1 month ago

A very thoughtful and logical article, a good read and informative

Richard Jenkins
Richard Jenkins
1 month ago

At last! A clear. Concise & easily understandable breakdown of the obvious & compelling truth.

Annibendod
Annibendod
1 month ago

Very disappointed to see that some perfectly reasonable comments have been deleted. Are we not allowing debate Nation?

Stephen Price
Admin
1 month ago
Reply to  Annibendod

If they’re voted down enough they delete automatically

Jack
Jack
1 month ago
Reply to  Stephen Price

Not sure they should be. Voting down can be done for emotive reasons, not logical reasons. In other words this makes the site stacked for those sharing one attitude and questioning it is not allowed.

Stephen Price
Admin
1 month ago
Reply to  Jack

Fors and againsts I guess. Certainly don’t want an echo chamber here, but often people really do cross the line so the group moderation is at least something. None of yours have been binned by us anyway, I just had a look.

Lyn E
Lyn E
1 month ago
Reply to  Stephen Price

I agree with Annibendod on this. I didn’t see the deleted post, but there is a difference between being offensive and being unpopular.

Annibendod
Annibendod
1 month ago
Reply to  Stephen Price

That’s still disappointing. There was nothing offensive in the original opinion expressed and Llew responded well to it. Doesn’t make sense for them to be deleted simply because they’re unpopular.

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
1 month ago
Reply to  Annibendod

I too am disappointed to see comments deleted. If you can’t engage you can’t persuade. From a selfish point, some of the critical comments lack such credibility it helps make my case. Where I do object, no objection is too strong. Where I have concerns, is where people fly their own ideologies, agendas, without properly relating to the content and context of the article. This particular opinion piece, for example, is not aimed at providing a blueprint for Independence as you would believe from some comments, It is addressing a particular issue, it is the fifth of my opinion pieces,… Read more »

westisbest
westisbest
1 month ago

Great article. Very clear what can be done.

John Ellis
John Ellis
1 month ago

‘There are many precedents to assure the Welsh public that a border should be no significant impediment on independence.’ Mr Gruffudd might also have cited Belgium and the Netherlands, where the national border has long been practically no more significant than a county boundary is in the UK. And the UK has already accepted something essentially similar in Ireland as the price to be paid to bring ‘the Troubles’ to an end. ‘The reality is that border issues are part of any negotiations that will inevitably come with independence.’ True enough as far as it goes, of course; but I… Read more »

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
1 month ago
Reply to  John Ellis

I do think you overstate that the vindictiveness of the main Westminster parties would overrule the realities. Wales, in negotiations will not be the weak and helpless body being portrayed. As I try to illustrate, there are many repercussions for England to consider in a hard border, not least the water supply to large parts of England, to which they would jeopardise and to which England would have no short/medium term solution. Without water from Wales, Birmingham in particular would run dry within a day. Just one example of the self harm a vindictive England could impose on itself by… Read more »

CapM
CapM
1 month ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

It’s the- don’t cross us because we’re bastards – argument that oddly [ or perhaps it’s not odd at all] quite a few English Unionists make.

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
1 month ago
Reply to  CapM

Usually the more intellectually challenged ones, thankfully.

Lyn E
Lyn E
1 month ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

I have never understood why those who emphasise how badly England has treated Wales over centuries seem to believe we would be treated benignly in independence negotiations.

If it came to it, England has a simple answer to the Welsh water issue: paratroopers. This is a country that has invaded and slaughtered for resources across the world. Do you think it is going to let its cities go thirsty?

CapM
CapM
1 month ago
Reply to  Lyn E

If it came to it, England has a simple answer to the Welsh water issue: paratroopers. This is a country that has invaded and slaughtered for resources across the world. Do you think it is going to let its cities go thirsty?

Is there a computer game in which you could play such fantasies out?
I’m sure it would help.

Lyn E
Lyn E
1 month ago
Reply to  CapM

I suggest you educate yourself on the history of British imperialism (Caroline Elkins’ ‘Legacy of Violence’ would be a good start). Lift your head to look at the world around you. I was present on the two million-plus demonstrations against the Iraq war, which was in part motivated by the wish to ensure oil supplies.

Llew Gruffudd’s comment, ‘Without water from Wales, Birmingham in particular would run dry within a day’ was a direct threat to cut supplies as a negotiating tool. Under international law, stopping water constitutes an act of war and England would have every right to respond militarily.

CapM
CapM
1 month ago
Reply to  Lyn E

https://www.classicempire.com/

Empire is a simulation of a global conflict between two to three implacable foes. No compromise is possible, each must strive to annihilate the other. The war is conducted over a large map, with land, sea and cities on it. Each player manipulates his armies, fighters and ships to try and smash the others, to reach the goal of total domination of the world. Empire is not a video arcade-type game. It is a thinking man’s game, as it requires strategy and tactics instead of hand-eye coordination.

Looks promising.

Lyn E
Lyn E
1 month ago
Reply to  CapM

I am not surprised that you have more interest in games than in the real world.

John Ellis
John Ellis
1 month ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

‘I do think you overstate that the vindictiveness of the main Westminster parties …’ A quarter of a century ago I might have agreed with you on that. But I don’t now. ‘New’ Labour during the mid-90s seemed to me to go through a rather romantic period during which they were open to fresh and even revolutionary reforming ideas, and that coincided with the dominance on the local political scenes of visionaries such as Rhodri Morgan in Wales and Donald Dewar in Scotland, who, while still supporters of the union, nevertheless successfully argued the case for serious devolution.. And at… Read more »

Richard Jenkins
Richard Jenkins
1 month ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

As well as water, atm Lloegr is fairly dependent on the 50% of electricity we produce. Given the porosity of the border extends to both sides, it doesn’t make sense for them to play too tough.

Jack
Jack
1 month ago

Waste of time at this stage. Only IF the politis shifts at Westminster then such an exercise would have a point. Now, it’s dreamland / nightmare land.

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
1 month ago
Reply to  Jack

Waste of time at this stage What negativity. Independence will occur when the Welsh public are convinced of its benefits. When that happens, the politics at Westminster will be irrelevant. This article, along with others, is trying to inform the Welsh people of those benefits and to demystify the many myths being perpetuated around Wales Independence.It’s not dreamland/nightmare, it’s just one small contribution to countering the many years of misinformation and yes negativity too.

CapM
CapM
1 month ago
Reply to  Jack

I think it’s likely that it’s your ‘nightmare’ hence the panic.

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
1 month ago
Reply to  Jack

Au contraire, it’s exactly the variety of discussion we should be having. Yes, of course it’s ‘blue sky’ thinking, but when people inevitably ask questions it’s a good idea to have at least an idea of an answer, always emphaisising that that at this stage it can only ever be a debate, and not something set in stone. Let’s not kid ourselves, nations live in our collective imaginations, and we have to be able to imagine what an independent Cymru would be like in order for it to exist. We should be doing far more of this brainstorming stuff about… Read more »

Lyn E
Lyn E
1 month ago

Good to see you tackling the question of the border with England. Unfortunately, you present what you would like to follow independence for Wales as if it were guaranteed to happen. As what you describe is just one scenario out of many, there is no basis for assuming it would happen. Separation from England is not yet on the agenda and it is not possible to predict the circumstances in which it might be. The world is volatile. You are selective in your examples of open borders. There are far more cases in the world in which movement and trade… Read more »

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
1 month ago
Reply to  Lyn E

Same old arguments, no certainties. The facts I alluded to in my article. If we put aside the parachute joke, it was a joke wasn’t it?. the rest is just a repeat of your mantra of uncertainty. There are no certainties in this life, except for the obvious one, but that doesn’t prevent us from planning for the future, even in our everyday lives. To do so we use probability and logic, it’s the only way. To take a couple of your points that don’t come into that category, you seem to be implying that the UK/ England would frame… Read more »

Lyn E
Lyn E
1 month ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

It is not a question of England being ‘vindicative’ but simply of pursuing its own interests in negotiating with a foreign country, as the EU did in its stance following the Leave vote. I did not suggest that ‘England would frame consumer law just to make life difficult for Wales businesses’. I simply pointed out that exporters have to obey the law in their markets. The previous UK government had to learn this post-Brexit: doing business with the EU means conforming with EU law. An independent Wales would be constrained in its policy choices. You are wrong to think that… Read more »

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
1 month ago
Reply to  Lyn E

Your pro English stance is blinding you to reality. On Independence the water in Wales belongs to Wales and it can do with it as it wishes. It is not an absurb bluff that water supply becomes part of any negotiation and depending on England’s stance, so does the supply of that resource. It would not, as you say, be an act of war and England would have no claim. Look up the Vienna Convention.

Lyn E
Lyn E
1 month ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

You have again exposed your hatred of those who live in England. Everyone has the right to adequate supplies of clean water, whoever they are. Your belief that an independent state has an absolute right over natural resources within its borders denies the reality of our interdependent world, and flies in the face of international law. The Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties does not give any state the right to cut water supplies. More relevant is Article 54 of the 1977 Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions, which ‘prohibits the destruction, removal, or rendering useless of objects that… Read more »

CapM
CapM
1 month ago
Reply to  Lyn E

It looks to me like the gods have got it in for you.

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
1 month ago
Reply to  Lyn E

There you go again. not only misrepresenting my article, but a whole raft of conventions. My article clearly states that England/UK must take into account the supply of water in negotiations. You are wrong on the Vienna Convention, which clearly states that the natural resources are the property of the seceding nation. Wales would be entitled to reduce, charge for, or divert that supply at will. It would not be an act of war. The Geneva Convention protocol that you quote is only relevant to war. I do not believe in Wales as a rogue state, far from it. I… Read more »

Lyn E
Lyn E
1 month ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

You claim I am misrepresenting your article, then repeat exactly what I am criticising, saying ‘Wales would be entitled to reduce, charge for, or divert that supply at will’. No, it would not. An independent Wales would be bound by international law and conventions, a large and growing body of which deals specifically with cross-border water resources. The Geneva Convention is relevant because illegally cutting water supply constitutes an act of war. Leaving aside issues over the resources of river basins (Wye, Severn, Dee) that cross the Wales-England border), Wales would be legally entitled to inform England that it intended… Read more »

CapM
CapM
1 month ago
Reply to  Lyn E

But Wales would not have a legal right to cut supply ‘at will’.’

If you insist on playing this game – Cymru would not need to cut the water supply it would just need to let the reservoirs run dry. Still a water supply but not enough in summer.

You indulge in a fantasy of water being so important to England that they’d send paratroopers into Cymru to secure the supply.
Now your argument is that water is of little importance because it’s only 2% of the UK economy.

Make your mind up.

Lyn E
Lyn E
1 month ago
Reply to  CapM

It doesn’t matter if supply was immediately cut or deliberately allowed to dry up. It would still constitute an act of aggression that would breach international conventions and provoke a response that could prove fatal to a nascent Welsh state. Statehood brings responsibilities as well as rights. A mature case for Welsh independence would understand that. Water is of course vitally important, which is why it is protected by international law that only a rogue state would ignore. That does not mean that water would offer contribute as much to a future Welsh economy as is sometimes implied, the context… Read more »

CapM
CapM
1 month ago
Reply to  Lyn E

You really should keep reminding yourself that it’s your water wars fantasy that’s being indulged.
You’ve exited reality regarding this issue a long time ago.

Lyn E
Lyn E
1 month ago
Reply to  CapM

It was Llew Gruffudd that started this by indulging his fantasy of a water war. ‘As I try to illustrate, there are many repercussions for England to consider in a hard border, not least the water supply to large parts of England, to which they would jeopardise and to which England would have no short/medium term solution. Without water from Wales, Birmingham in particular would run dry within a day.’

In response, I have pointed out why this would not work.

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
1 month ago
Reply to  Lyn E

Give it up. You are now getting into the realms of absurdity. Your concentration on water being the catalyst for some sort of international condemnation just doesn’t hold up. In the USA, your example of the all powerful, water is a commodity. It is sold as a commodity on the New York Stock Exchange, so your international force isn’t going to get much support there.As for the part water plays in the Wales economy. Even the miserly projection by Cardiff University quoted it at between £250 million and £500 million per year. That’s 3000 extra nurses, 5000 extra care workers,… Read more »

Lyn E
Lyn E
1 month ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

My comments were a response to your implied threat that Wales could cut water to Birmingham. If you want to drop that bluff, then we can have a sensible debate about the contribution that water resources could bring to the Welsh economy. Welsh water production makes an important contribution to the Welsh economy. But much of our water (if not most) is already being consumed in Wales, and the evidence from sewage discharge is that Dwr Cymru is not adequately investing in water quality. This is not all additional money that Wales would acquire by becoming independent. Expanding water production… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Lyn E
Walter Hunt
Walter Hunt
1 month ago

Borders do throw up problems on a spectrum from the bureaucratic (EU-UK) to the apocalyptic (Gaza-Israel). So there is plenty of scope for dark imaginings. When the issue comes up, isn’t the best answer a politician can give: “I/we don’t deal with hypotheticals” and if pressed: “An independent Wales would conduct its external relations on a win-win basis and mutual respect” and about “pride in having a Welsh passport”. Referring to your opponents or their supporters concerns as “hysteria” (or name calling) is unlikely to win people over.

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