Welsh place name pronunciation: Let he without sin post the first comment
Stephen Price
Welsh social media users came out in force to criticise a BBC newsreader over her pronunciation Bannau Brycheiniog recently.
Catherine Byaruhanga, who was previously the BBC’s Africa correspondent, tripped up while reporting on the increase in the numbers of tourists visiting the “Instagrammable” national park back on 17 August.
Posting the clip online, a Facebook user quite rightly pointed out that the BBC has a pronunciation unit to assist their broadcasters to get it right, writing: “Did she miss the memo or was the pronunciation unit on their summer holidays at Dolygoloo or Betsi Co-ed?” he said. “This simply isn’t acceptable.”
Commenters piled in underneath, with one adding: “Would this happen if the location was in another country or the name wasn’t in Welsh?”
When one Facebook user suggested that the newsreader had ‘given it her best shot’, another replied: “Sorry, but ‘gave it her best shot’ might be ok if you are on holiday there but not if you are representing the UK’s national broadcaster on their news programme.”
Human after all
So, of course, the BBC has a duty to get things right, they’ve got their pronunciation unit after all. But, while fallible, imperfect humans still have jobs in the media, and while we have live television and ever-shrinking pools of money to play with, perfection can always be aimed for, but will never be reached.
Be it a typo, a tongue-tie or simply being a deer in headlights, people can and always will make mistakes.
I fall over my words all the time, and the risk is even greater when vocalising a word in an unfamiliar language.
Here in Wales, Welsh is familiar, and yet here we are, with pockets full of stones ready to throw which surely suggests we are all masters of our own place names. We must be, right? Judging by the number of people angered by Byaruhanga’s unintentional mispronunciation.
Facebook police
As much as it might grate, we can somewhat overlook the Aber-socks (Abersoch), Betsy Co-Eds (Betws y Coed) and Torffun-esque (Torfaen) pronunciations I’ve heard from visitors and simply roll our eyes.
Forgive them Father, for they have at least an excuse!
Much like a Catalonian must have to bite their tongue when we’re asking for directions to Santa Eulalia, Ciutadella and Cala Llonga, or an Englishman might be amused by my attempt to pronounce Marylebone or Cholmondeley, incorrect pronunciation in an unfamiliar land or language is par for the course.
So why are we not more forgiving of others when it comes to pronouncing Welsh place names when so many English speaking Welsh people all-too-often have absolutely no leg to stand on?
A few local examples, and some of the travesties I hear day-in day-out from natives include Musgwortha (Maes y Gwartha), Brimow (Brynmawr), Langa’uk (Llangattock/Llangatwg), Cuffily (Caerffili), Talguth (Talgarth), Gilwun (Gilwern), Langors (Llangors), Loony (Llwynu) Nanteeglow (Nantyglo), Mirthuh (Merthyr), …OK this could go on some time, I think you’re getting the point…
I grew up on a council estate called Haulfryn, but have I heard anyone besides myself call it anything but something-akin-to ‘Horle Ffrin’? I’m afraid I haven’t.
When viewing a house in the village above (Llanelly Hill – often pronounced Lanethly by the locals) I was asked where I grew up by the owner and informed him that I was local-ish, went to the local school and was moving up from Haulfryn.. If I did.
He looked at me as if I’d arrived freshly from the moon. “What? Horle Ffrin!?”
We left it there.
Hold my drink
One issue I battle with as a second language Welsh speaker (or ‘new speaker’) despite it being over 30 years now, is my impossible quest for perfection.
I stumble over sentences and replies despite knowing exactly what the other person has said.
Time and time again, however, I keep stressing the need to use the Welsh we have. Pause, chuck a bit of Wenglish in if need be, dal ati.
Imagine if native Welsh speakers pulled us up on every incorrect pronunciation when we’re trying our best. That wouldn’t get us anywhere.
To their credit, they’re also dignified in their silence when it comes to our pronunciation of our own Welsh place names. But, in the interests of fairness, I have no such dignity, so hold my drink!
Say it right
I wonder if those angered by a mispronunciation by a BBC News presenter roll the R in Pontypridd and Bannau Brycheiniog, pronounce the Rh of Rhondda and Rhossili, or know how to pronounce Rhyd Ddu, Llanfairfechan and Blaenwaun.
How come we aren’t so quick to pick our friends, neighbours and even ourselves up when we lazily pronounce our own place names in a way an accomplished and graceful BBC newsreader live-on-air dare not?
If we live here, we don’t have an excuse – especially the group-think ‘ah, I know it should be said this way but no one locally says that’ one.
So, of course, our publicly funded broadcasters should always pronounce our place names correctly. But it wouldn’t hurt us to be a little more kind and understanding when bloopers inevitably happen.
It wouldn’t hurt us, either, to walk our talk and say our own place names with a little more effort and reverence.
It might be a strange analogy, but before I felt cool and comfortable with elements of myself, a hurtful name slung my way would do just as intended. It would hurt. But with confidence, with acceptance, came a love of a roast, Top Trumping put-downs of my own or, better still, a shrug and zero f****s given.
We do a disservice to ourselves as a supposedly strong, confident nation if our first instinct is to go for the jugular when someone disrespects our hallowed land, or unintentionally trips up over a pronunciation.
A sheepshagger joke, or some popty ping vowel-free-language style rot? A disparaging opinion of a Welsh location? It’s not even worth a reply. Let that kind of thing simply reflect the IQ, or very often the fear and envy, of its originator.
A blooper of a pronunciation, especially when spoken with no ill intent? Is that really the best destination to direct our rage?
Unless your Maesygwartha, Llanllyfni and Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch roll off the tongue with ease, we’re all better off leaving the telling-off to the experts.
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Yes all of that. National broadcaster should get it right.
That goes for skellington, and Edingburgh.
It’s called trying, and asking others who are likely to know.
Phonetics also, to make it easier.
There is a place in Liverpool called Skellington Fold. Also Childwall pronounced Child Wall and Gateacre pronounced Gattiker. Place names often have specific local pronunciations. I am from Monmouthshire and insist on pronouncing it the old way as Munmuthshire and the town as Munmouth. I know this to be the older pronunciation from my childhood and from Victorian books where it was spelt Munmouth. The Welsh is Mynwy so it is consistent. St Austell is Snozzle.
And St Albans is Snolbins.
I’ve heard this newsreader mangle a few things off the autocue, as she is new (just this years)t to a studio-based presenting job in the UK and is a lot more comfortable reading her own copy to camera as a reporter. I wonder how well the complainers would tackle her Ugandan surname, even at the second or third attempt with tuition.
Strangely, you illustrate the main point & then ignore it completely to make a somewhat facetious argument concerning individuals?
The main point is that this was not a single individual in a single conversation! This is the BBC speaking to millions.
If I knew what facetious meant id be offended
Ban-eye Bruk-A-knee-ogg
Alas! Huw Edwards is no longer available to give accurate pronunciation advice to newsreaders…
Silly girl working the Olympics was pronouncing all sorts of African, Asian, E.European names with fluency. Came to a swimmer called Angharad and made a right rollox of it. Didn’t matter, it was only Welsh. Nuff said.
That’s telling when they get the weird English placenames right and even most of the foreign ones but fluff the ones in Wales.
Absolutely. Lot of respect for her. I would like to see many of the complainers plonked in a chair in front of several camera’s knowing you are in the rooms of potentially millions, ear pice full of select gallery chatter, count down to finishing that piece, listening for timing cues and instructions whilst trying to keep to the autocue and knowing that you have x number of seconds or minutes to fill that story then its onto the next story and you aim to get it right every time. It doesn’t always come off smooth and she does a far… Read more »
I’ve some sympathy, in that the pronunciation faux-pas is by no means a phenomenon confined to English-speaking news readers with scant if any knowledge of Wales and Welsh.
In my experience when I lived in such places, locals, especially along the eastern borders with England, routinely do something similar: in Monmouthshire I recall Llanddewi Rhydderch being rendered as ‘Lundewy Rudderuck’, and in Radnorshire Bwlch-y-Sarnau pronounced ‘Bull-sarney’.
‘People in glass houses …’, maybe?!
Learn how to pronounce each letter of the Welsh alphabet. Then, pronounce each letter of the word one by one (speed is not reqd.).
Does the school system in the UK help in any way? You might think that the English and Scottish children have some minor tution of Welsh, even if it was attached to geography or history to make sense of Lanark, Malvern or Dover.
Alternatively why in Wales and England do we not get taught the slightest thing about Scots or Gaelic.
Perhaps all the tourists rushing in along the A55 should be stopped and not allowed to proceed until they master Llandudno – a pet hate of mine.
Why learn minority languages for an area not your own? No reason whatsover. We all have enough problem getting English right (and a national minority language if that is what you want).
Not learn the language just a little basic knowledge. Because in your life it is likely that you may go to the other countries of the UK and if “British” is supposed to mean anything it should involve a little knowledge of the countries and their languages than just Englands language and history.
Well said. I am so fed up of hearing Abergele being pronounced as “Ab-y-geli” – even by people who have always lived in that town! People have often laughed at me, even corrected me, for saying it correctly.
If we want other people to pronounce our place names correctly, we need to do so ourselves.
You can say exactly the same about Pontardawe where even some locals pronounce it as Ponardawi
I’ve been mocked by somebody from Brynmawr for pronouncing Abercynon correctly. They said it should be “Aber-sign-on”. All the Welsh I know I taught myself. I do at least get placenames right
Aber- sign-on.. 😆
The presenter isn’t the problem – the corporation is at fault for consistently failing to ensure their presenters can pronounce the words from this part of Britain correctly. It’s basic respect. Don’t go finger wagging at us for being worn out by this repeated slight. That’s gaslighting. Quite right that we’re annoyed. I make no apology for it AND I expect better from the BBC who are supposed to serve the British public … that does include us Cambrian Britons too, yes!?!
BBC Radio Wales programme presenters, weather forecasters, traffic news reporters and others desperately need a few lessons in pronunciating Welsh placenames too. Who employs these people? It grates me to hear Brynglass, Pontardawee, Penllergare, Abertawee, Caegirly, Ronda, Macinlet, ‘Ponty’pridd, Lannymunack, Slyditch to name but a few. My son, from Llanelli, now lives not far from Caergwrle but when he pronounced it correctly he was laughed at in the pub and was told: “We don’t call it that. The correct pronunciation is Caegirly.” Border people are the worst.
Most pronounciations in the south east of Wales are the result of the old Gwentian dialect of Cymraeg. Penllergaer is a good example. The ae dipthong would rhyme with the english “eye” to the west. In the east it would rhyme with the english “hair”. That’s entirely normal and I suspect is common to all languages.
Totally agree Frank regarding BBC Wales especially the traffic reports. “Carefully” is ever present & for the last couple of years during the road works on the A365 around Merthyr we’ve had to listen out for a place called “Kevin coed”. Oh & don’t forget Carnafon of course. Mind you around my way people look aghast when I pronounce “Pont new id” correctly as Pontnewydd & Torr Fane as Torfaen. Aahh well.
This debate has gone down a rabbit hole. What ordinary people say and do is a completely different topic to how the taxpayer funded supposed national broadcaster for the whole of the UK union portrays the indigenous British language.
Irwin not Hirwaun
I’m born and bred Welsh but for god’s sake people, get over yourselves. Stop being the victim and just get on with your lives.
As for pronouncing ‘Brecon Beacons’ (that’s what it translates as)… don’t see what the issue is because all other place names have an English version. I guarantee that Japanese tourists don’t pronounce it correctly with a good old welsh accent.
I’m proud to be a Welshman but these moaners are nothing but dinosaurs
False equivalence there. I make no apology for expecting a service who are in receipt of payment from the vast majority of Welsh households, who puportedly serve the Welsh public, to get the pronounciation of our placenames right. A perfectly reasonable expectation WHEN THEY MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO PRONOUNCE WORDS IN OVERSEAS LANGUAGES CORRECTLY.
It’s called RESPECT.
Really? It was a mistake.
people losing it over a mistake.
This is one of the reasons why I I have misgivings for indy.
Same mistakes over and over again and they get extremely well paid for it. But they always get complex names from afar correct so they are quite happy. If you are OK with that then you are OK with your own Anglicised superiority complex.
Nope, it’s not just a one off is it. This has been going on since I can remember. THAT’s the problem. Read my other post further up. I don’t blame the individual. I blame the corporation that collects our licence fee and is supposed to provide us with a service and consistently fails to do anything about it. Do you not understand how insulting it is to hear Beeb presenters give well practiced pronounciations for overseas names and persistently mangle Welsh names which are a part of the same State to which they belong? Stop gaslighting me. Damn right I… Read more »
It will happen again. And it will happen again. And they will mangle english wprds and french worms. It will keep happening as long as there is live TV.
I understand that people can choose to get upset when I suspect the reporter did not set out to put you off your day and the process of getting what she says to your screen is not perfect.
Respect eh? Nothing to do with respect, it comes under stuff happens when live. Deal with it.
Most of those that comment go out of their way to point out that their criticism is aimed at the BBC as an organisation and not the individual presenter. Yet you insist on making it just about the “reporter” and future similar instances of mangled pronunciations rather the BBC not putting enough effort into improving their record on this matter. We still get experienced BBC political commentators referring to Plaid Cymru as Plaid Simroo and similar. As someone who’s nationality of choice is British doesn’t it annoy you just a but that the British Broadcast Corporation doesn’t get the Welsh… Read more »
“This is one of the reasons why I I have misgivings for indy.”
Then racist rioters attempting to burn down hotels housing non white people must make you feel certain that you don’t want to be a UK subject.
What other options are left for you?
A bit unfair to pick on the Japanese as in their language all syllables end in a vowel, with the sole exception of the letter ‘n’. Thus they’ll have problems pronouncing many English words let alone Welsh ones; in fact, they will often insert vowels into adopted English words to make the pronunciation easier. I’m a native English speaker who doesn’t speak Welsh but I have gone to the trouble of familiarising myself with the pronunciation – and getting it right (the only thing that may throw me is the different pronunciations of ‘y’, according to placement). To say, eg,… Read more »
This is the norm for the BBC. These newsreaders are journalists, and a good journalist does his or her research i.e how to pronounce a place name before they sit in front of a camera to millions to read out the news. It’s totally unacceptable because the same newsreader can pronounce French & Italian names with ease but butcher Welsh. It’s all to do with respect. These so-called professionals obviously are not good at their job. See a little common sense, a pen & paper, and you can pronounce any name around the world without a problem. It’s called phonetics.… Read more »
Then real life comes along and trips you up. Mistakes happen. Just check the blooper reels. Live production comes with risks that you cannot edit out. As much as everyone is trying to malign the BBC here, perhaps they need to work in the job as a senior journalist and work through the daily meetings, building the news stories for the bulletin then after all that work sit in front of the camera with all the attendant goings on and deliver word perfect every single day of their career and then when they retire they can point a finger and… Read more »
You’re gaslighting. It’s not a one off. It’s all the time.
I didn’t think they decided what goes into the bulletin they just read the autocue and emote as instructed to suggest to the viewers how they are supposed to feel about it.
I’m a she who is without sin. Why am I denied the right to post the first comment?
Seems a bit sexist.
You COULD have said “let THEY who are without sin” which would have included everyone, but I know many people get ridiculously upset about “pronouns”
does the pronunciation guide include Wenglish
Walking through Pencelli a few years back with two others, all three of us had a different pronunciation. All Bedwas boys but I have no doubt I was right.
Pengelli