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Opinion

What’s the point of Plaid Cymru?

12 Nov 2024 9 minute read
Leader of Plaid Cymru Rhun ap Iorwerth speaks during the party’s annual conference at the Principality Stadium in Cardiff. Credit: Ben Birchall/PA Wire

Llew Gruffudd

A new leader, same old flip flop. Support for independence, but not yet. A raft of policies, but how to pay for them. Well?

Plaid leader Rhun ap Iorwerth states in a recent interview that before considering independence, it is important to convince the English coming to Wales, that Wales is a good place.

What’s that all about?

His priority should surely be convincing Welsh people living in Wales that Wales is a good place. Perhaps the Welsh valleys would be a good place to start.

As a party with supposedly independence as a policy, there seems to be a view that supporting independence too strongly, is the cause of their very obvious problems.

Closer to the truth is that Plaid Cymru’s wobbling around independence is the problem. They simply are not committed, not credible.

This unfortunately, is the way with Plaid Cymru. In the early years, independence was a word not to be used, a supposed vote loser.

Prior to the 1999 Devolution vote independence was dropped as a policy.

And although reinstated, Plaid Cymru 2011 manifesto had no mention of independence and in the 2016 manifesto warranted merely a paragraph.

It was not until the success of rallies led by Yes Cymru and the like and the rise for independence support in polls that Plaid Cymru took a liking for it.

YesCymru independence march in Merthyr Tydfil. Lluniau gan / Pictures by Lluniau Lleucu

Not entirely though. Plaid’s infamous Commission on Independence, you know, the one that wants a referendum on a referendum, they carried on the Plaid tradition of “now don’t be hasty”.

Perhaps, they said, we should go for a federal UK system. Not such a big commitment.

After all, it took almost 25 years to discover that devolution isn’t working for Wales. If it takes another 25 years to find federalism isn’t working, that would give a bit more time to have a think about independence.

Even in their recent manifesto, you have to reach page 42, before you come to independence.

They have failed to realise that you cannot use independence like that and remain credible.

Although they don’t realise it, Plaid Cymru need independence

Where are they without it?

Strip away the rhetoric. Where are they different?

Generally recognised outside their diminishing heartland as a Welsh speaker dominated elite.

The Party of Wales, they say. The only party committed to Wales.

They seem to think that by repeating it enough, it becomes true. Whereas it is only relevant if it is of benefit to Wales and that as yet to be shown.

The message though hasn’t cut through yet.

A membership of around 9000 from a Welsh electorate of 2.3 million, hardly supports the claim of the Party of Wales,

They are not even the second party. That’s the Tories without even trying.

They are squeezed between the bigger parties.

They were a junior part, in the Cooperation Agreement with Labour, rather than a robust opposition. How far they have fallen by is shown conceding the opposition to a programmed robot they have named R T Davies.

But it would also seem that they would also work with the Tories. That was indicated by Lord Ellis Thomas. You know the political mercenary, rejoining Plaid Cymru, He had been given assurances, he said.

Dafydd Iwan, Dafydd Wigley, Dafydd Ellis, Thomas and Ieuan Wyn Jones launching the 1983 Plaid Cymru election campaign (Credit: Wiki Commons)

The party’s failure to work with the main parties, including the Tories, was his reason for leaving.

However this approach may be pleasant enough for Plaid members, but is not enthusing with the Welsh voters.

Their support for the Welsh Labour government is not good politics. Welsh Labour is using them. Didn’t they learn anything from their time in coalition?

Plaid Cymru is making a great and often quoted play, of its part in the free meals for primary school children in Wales. It would help the poorest families, they argue. (Although Welsh Labour has already claimed that as their own)

Instead, they should be loudly and consistently condemning a constitutional system that allows such poverty in Wales.

In Finland, a small country, all school children get free meals, not because they are poor but because the country is wealthy.

Now that’s something to boast about.

It should also be remembered, that in the Wales financial arrangement, the additional money for that purpose, however laudable, is taken from somewhere else, some other area less in the political spotlight.

The thinking seems to be. The public [the voters], would be less likely to object if, for example, £260 million or so is spent on children’s meals, even if it’s taken from the innovation and research and development budget. Which is historically the perennial loser.
However it is the innovation, research and development that improves the Welsh economy to allow meals for all children, as in Finland.
But that’s Plaid Cymru. If you think small you will achieve small.

They tell the few who are listening that they have big plans

A plan for thousands of jobs in green industries, for example. And there’s more. [as with all political parties ‘fully costed’] except that Plaid, in their own words, will need an additional £6 billion from the UK government.

Well good luck with that.

But that’s not a plan. That’s just a wish list.

Plaid Cymru needs a clear and considered plan for the future of Wales.

Come the next election all the parties will be environmentalists, all will build more houses, protect the NHS, social care, provide better education and repair the potholes.

What they have in common, is the avoidance of how? How are they going to implement them? How to pay for them?

Plaid will be shackled, as will the other parties, by financial allocation and policy from Westminster.

It’s not independence that’s the problem for Plaid, but their inability or unwillingness to tell the Welsh people how it is able to better their lives and how it is to be achieved.

They want a plan.

An economic plan for an independent Wales.

Plaid Cymru leader Rhun ap Iorwerth launches his party’s General Election manifesto in Marble Hall, at The Temple of Peace in Cardiff. Photo Ben Birchall/PA Wire

The Welsh people are not against change, Brexit and the 2019 General Election, showed that.

The trick is to convince them of which change.

They would welcome higher wages, better pensions, health and social care, higher education standards for Welsh children, They just don’t know how it’s going to happen and Plaid Cymru, the Party of Wales, is doing little to enlighten them.

So where have they been until now?

Their leader has been a Senedd member of his party for over a decade. So what has his and Plaid Cymru’s contribution to this persuasion been?

Very little it would seem

Wales potential

In spite of the drum beating and flag waving, the Welsh public remain unaware of the great potential that Wales can offer, given the opportunity.

A number of recent projections regarding Wales renewable energy resources by Carbon Trust, Marine Energy and Crown Estates present findings of 14 GigaWatts of renewable energy sources off the Welsh coast.

This has a value of £10+billions per year at the present wholesale price.

That’s an awful lot of extra money for investment in Wales, for Wales NHS, social care, education, housing and more.
In growing the economy.

That is if Wales owned those resources as a nation.

Now not a lot of people know that.

Cardiff University, in Wales financial assessment, argued that if Wales wages were at a UK average, it would add £5.4 billion per year to Wales revenue income through income tax and N.I.

This achieved by investment in skills training and technology [that’s from our £10 billion]

Not a lot of people know that.

A Nat West study found that if Wales productivity level was at the UK average it would add a further £1.7 billion annually to the Wales economy and Price Waterhouse study argued that if productivity was at the level of the best in the EU it would add £7.3 billion per year to the Wales economy.

This is to be achieved by increased investment in innovation, research and development.

Not a lot of people know that.

The question is why don’t the people know that?

A further £20 billion per year from these few examples, if Wales was free to take advantage of these opportunities, it would surely influence the Welsh public view of independence.

That is, if only they were aware and the fact they don’t know, is a failure of the Party of Wales. The supposed party of independence.

It is they who have the platform.

Every interview, every public statement by every Plaid representative, should contain references to the benefits of independence.

Instead of constantly wailing about the shortcomings of Westminster, they should be talking up the alternative. The benefits of independence. Supported by credible evidence.

Independence should become an everyday topic in Wales. However, being Plaid they don’t and they won’t.

The former First Minister, Mark Drakeford, often quoted in the Senedd, his commitment to the Union. Better together, he said. Shared benefits, he said. Not one concrete, tangible example as to why. He didn’t need to. For, to their discredit, he was not challenged on it by the Party of Wales. That seems to be the way with exchanges there.

But the path to independence, the only way these improvements can be made, won’t be decided in these ineffectual exchanges, but out with the people, the voters, persuading them.

Perhaps Plaid Cymru could start by recognising that the border is Offas Dyke, not down the centre of Wales.


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HarrisR
HarrisR
25 days ago

“The Welsh people are not againBrecit st change, Brexit and the 2019 General Election, showed that” Well…Brexit, “taking back control, our money for our people” etc turned into total bullskid and buyers remorse, and the 2019 election was torpedoed from within even before it was announced. The 2024 election promised change but delivered change as absolutely no change, just a triumphant continuity austerity. I have a suspicion that disillusionment (to put it mildly) with the political class is now so total and so justified, that anyone of their ilk advocating it would be dumped in the nearest lake. And without… Read more »

S Duggan
S Duggan
25 days ago

I completely agree with the article’s conclusion. Plaid has to now back independence wholeheartedly and show the people of Cymru how it can be achieved, how it can benefit them, how it can make them more prosperous. The article shows us some examples – I’m sure there are many more. They have to be found, published and promoted. We have to give the Welsh public something new – an affordable, prosperous independence – is the answer.

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
25 days ago
Reply to  S Duggan

If people were living in an affluent society where they had decent jobs and a nice place to live and weren’t worrying about healthcare and their children’s future that might cut some ice. The fact is a huge proportion of the people of Cymru don’t give a monkeys about such arcane things when they’re grappling with the realities of life, such as if they can afford to eat and put the heating on as well, or will they get to end of this month without having to go to the foodbank. Promising people ‘jam tomorrow’ isn’t going to work, as… Read more »

S Duggan
S Duggan
23 days ago
Reply to  Padi Phillips

There’s no reason why Plaid can’t do both is there.

Annibendod
Annibendod
25 days ago

Erthygl barn chwerw sy’n haeddu mynd yn y bin sbwriel. Dyna ni. Tattie byes oll.

Jack
Jack
24 days ago
Reply to  Annibendod

People who respond in Welsh are obviously no wanting to convert people to their view in this site whose lead material is in English.

Johnny Gamble
Johnny Gamble
24 days ago
Reply to  Jack

Copy and paste and then Google translate.This is the year 2024 not 1824

Garycymru
Garycymru
24 days ago
Reply to  Johnny Gamble

Ignore him, he’s still using racism to appear edgy and relevant. I’ve been screenshotting his racially abusive comments for some time.
Not long now.

Sylwebydd
Sylwebydd
25 days ago

Just one thing. Who is Llew Gruffudd? A Neil McEvoy acolyte, another bonkers Lib Dem or an undercover agent for Lady Morgan and co? If you say so much, please Nat Cymru tell us so we ca n evaluate how impartial he is.

Last edited 25 days ago by Sylwebydd
Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
25 days ago
Reply to  Sylwebydd

Oh dear. criticise Plaid it must be a conspiracy. I really don’t see where impartiality comes into it, it’s an opinion piece, or are only opinions partial to Plaid allowed. I can see that it is of concern to you that there may be some devious plot to undermine Plaid, To put your mind at rest, there’s not. I have no association with any of those you have quoted, nor with any other organisation. I am a citizen of Wales, a voter, no more than that and I have an opinion. I am an avowed supporter of Independence as my… Read more »

Annibendod
Annibendod
25 days ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

Rwyt ti’n amlwg wedi dod at dy farn ac mae’n amlwg na fydd dwyn perswad arnat ti. Barn chwerw un ochrog yw dy erthygl a llawn casineb a sarhad. Os wyt ti’n credu taw hollti’r mudiant a thanseilio Plaid Cymru di’r ateb, mi wyt ti allan o dy go’. Yr ateb yw bod cefnogwyr annibyniaeth yn brwydro i ennill pleidleisiau dros Plaid. At a push se’n i’n dweud i bobol yr adain dde mynd i Gwlad – gwelliant ar y Toriaid. Dylet ti fod yn Plaid yn dynnu dy bwysau. Mae’r erthygl hwn yn brad … a ti’n wbod beth?… Read more »

Dr John Ball
Dr John Ball
25 days ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

I didn’t think a yet further response was necessary, but well done Llew (whoever you are!!) on an articulate, thought provoking article.
I’ve had plenty to say about how pathetic and irrelevant Plaid Cymru has become (don’t mention independence in case offends the English…) and there is nothing to add from me…except, don’t expect any action anytime soon, or ever.

Annibendod
Annibendod
25 days ago
Reply to  Dr John Ball

Ac mi wyt ti wedi gwneud dy hunan yn llais ymylol yn y broses yn hytrach na thynnu dy bwysau yn y blaid. Cer i grafu John. Gwynt teg ar dy ôl.

Dr John Ball
Dr John Ball
25 days ago
Reply to  Annibendod

I’m very pleased that supporters of Plaid Cymru are obviously incapable of debate, resorting to insults.
Call me all the names you like, you have simply proved the point – Plaid Cymru has nothing to offer.
The people of Wales are, sadly, the losers.
Incidentally, I note that you do not have the courage to use your name, or indeed to answer the question I have put to you constantly – in how many elections have you stood and how many won?

hdavies15
hdavies15
25 days ago
Reply to  Dr John Ball

John, the clue is in the name. Dr John Ball is John Ball with a Doctorate to his name. Annibendod is … untidy, shambolic…. maybe reflecting the party in question. Pity really as the field was wide open yet they shunned it to go lurking in the shadows of ambiguity.

Jonathan Edwards
Jonathan Edwards
24 days ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

Llew G I don’t know you but I like all your articles.I very often use a titbit from one of your articles for the Facebook page Convention.cymru. I hope that’s OK. Lets hope praise from me doesn’t lose you readers! You see the need to guard your independence, profile and identifications and I don’t blame you.Talent is rarely heard in the land of the Welsh lobsters. Keep going. As you say, Wales needs that plan. Convention.cymru is working on it…..

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
24 days ago

Thanks for the compliment. Don’t worry about losing me readers, I can do that quite well myself. By all means use the articles all or in part. They are meant to spread what information I can to the benefit of Wales.

Sylwebydd
Sylwebydd
24 days ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

Just tell me one thing Llew. If you are as politicaly unaligned as you say, great. But to say you favour independence but not via Plaid Cymru, then who do you this there is that WILL deliver it for you?

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
23 days ago
Reply to  Sylwebydd

I can’t tell just one thing that I’m afraid. It’s much more complex than that. I am politically unaligned just because I haven’t found a political answer. I cannot see among the present Senedd politicians, an Independent Wales government. I do however believe that there is no other constitutional arrangement that can maximise Wales potential benefit. I believe that the answer is with the people, persuading them of the benefits. Do that and the politicians will follow. Nothing earth shattering. All I do is promote the benefits and debunk the obstacles. Perhaps I am relying on the old cometh the… Read more »

And
And
23 days ago
Reply to  Sylwebydd

Plaid has to be campaigning for it to be able to deliver it. They’re currently supporting a more pro-devolution stance – somehow believing that they can turn a system which was designed to prevent Independence into one that will deliver it. Which seems to come from the same place as thinking there’s any material benefit to sitting in the Lords and Commons. As Daniel Defoe said of the Scots after the Act of Union; “The Scots will be allowed to send to Westminster, a handful of men who will make no weight whatever. They will be allowed to sit there… Read more »

Jamie
Jamie
25 days ago
Reply to  Sylwebydd

If you have a bunker mentality towards criticism of your preferred party that’s not going to get you anywhere

John Ellis
John Ellis
25 days ago

‘The former First Minister, Mark Drakeford, often quoted in the Senedd, his commitment to the Union. Better together, he said. Shared benefits, he said. Not one concrete, tangible example as to why.’ Personally, I don’t greatly disagree with that, but I reckon that I’m an outlier. Nevertheless, my sense is that Drakeford’s seemingly counter-intuitive and illogical agenda of ‘unionist nationalism’ has nonetheless reflected how far your average Welsh voter has been prepared to go, thus far. Drakeford proved to me to turn out a far sharper politician than I ever thought he could be when he was initially elevated to… Read more »

Margaret Helen Parish
Margaret Helen Parish
25 days ago
Reply to  John Ellis

His talent? You must be joking…he as the Health Minister started the slide to the bottom of the Health charts!

John Ellis
John Ellis
25 days ago

Ironically I’ve read your post immediately on returning from day surgery at one of our local hospitals. After an extremely lucky adult life of robust good health, nearly a decade ago I started to develop some of the chronic problems that too often come in older age. Eight years ago we moved back to Wales and my experience of both primary and secondary health care in the NHS here has been significantly better that that which I experienced in England. Maybe I’ve been lucky, but that’s how it’s been for me.

Jamie
Jamie
25 days ago

Plaid have always performed best when they focus on people’s material, economic concerns front and foremost. From that they can make the case for independence…we saw what happened in 2021 and 2019 where they prioritised lines on independence and Remain more than people’s everyday economic needs (at least in terms of image/branding). A left-wing populist strategy may help them…but I don’t believe that is Rhun ap Iowerth’s style or political persuasion

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
25 days ago

All fine and dandy, but Finland has provided free school meals to all children since 1947, a time when the country was far from wealthy, had just lost a war to the Soviet Union and was paying reparations. Finland was also an independent, sovereign nation in full control of its own economy and currency. something Cymru is not, instead relying on short-changed finances distributed by a Westminster government determined on gaslighting the 99% there is no money when all of that 99% are well aware that there is a veritable mountain of money – if the politicians had the will… Read more »

idris
idris
25 days ago

Sad to say a spot on article,  I agree 100%.  Plaid have never had a cohesive economic or change management plan for the now in Wales let alone a proper vision for an independent Wales. If it hadn’t been for the rise in YesCymru independence would still be a sub topic at Plaids annual party conference Internally Plaid churn through the same tired old party strategists (Party loyalists) holding onto a thought process embed in politics from 25yrs ago… “If we stay close enough to Labour eventually people will get fed up (with Labour)  then vote Plaid” … as lazy a strategy… Read more »

Garycymru
Garycymru
25 days ago

Sad but accurate.
It rings a lot truer living in a border town where we’re subjected to daily racist abuse, slagging off of all things Welsh and a general disrespectful attitude from people moving in from other countries.
We need more visibility here for Wales, desperately.

Margaret Helen Parish
Margaret Helen Parish
25 days ago

Just add up the money used in Wales that has failed to provide jobs, but put monies into the pockets of those ‘snake oil salesmen’ with promises of jobs that never materielise.
The funding of a massive 3rd sector supported by Plaid putting money into party apparachiks pockets.
Billions upon billions lost due to Labour supported by Plaid!!!

Stevie B
Stevie B
25 days ago

Let’s have a game of word association, you go first, “Plaid Cymru” says my friend, my response “gutless”.

Rhufawn Jones
Rhufawn Jones
25 days ago

Angen iddyn nhw fagu dipyn o ruddin a galw nid yn unig am annibynniaeth ond am ddadwladychu economi Cymru sy’n ein gadael ar dlawd. Thâl hi ddim bod fel Bartimeus ddall yn cardota.

Charles Coombes
Charles Coombes
25 days ago

Plaid are more Socialist than Labour and have a better green agenda. Therefore they offer more to Wales !

Jack
Jack
24 days ago

Which proves the irrelevance of PC. In Wales if socialist vote Labour, if green vote Green. PC is currently left as a minor ‘Wales for Welsh speakers’ party which is why it is stuck in its North Wales core and has not moved from it. PC needs to become distinct. It needs to become Wales for the Welsh – get rid of the PC tag and become the ‘Welsh Nation Party’ and so get English language supporters.This would mean it would lessen its Welsh language absurd over-focus (you can be a Welsh just English langauage speaker lover of Wales –… Read more »

Johnny Gamble
Johnny Gamble
24 days ago
Reply to  Jack

You have been told several times before.Your anti Welsh language arguments are 50 years out of date.
Hasn’t it sunk in yet?

Alun
Alun
25 days ago

An aimless, meandering party if they aren’t pursing independence.

David
David
25 days ago

Where is the short term policy & long term policy in gaining independence. There is a lot of work to be done.

Nia James
Nia James
24 days ago

Sadly, Plaid, like Labour, has gone down the climate change rabbit hole and the party sits on its hands as our rural economy is being carved up by carpetbaggers. Plaid should place independence at the front and centre of every speech, policy pronouncement, interview, etc. They should also highlight the antediluvian nature of the UK State and call out the colonial attitudes of those Brits who see Cymru as a third or fourth rate boil on the backside (those people are out there in substantial numbers and are growing with the rise of Reform). Unless enough patriots get their acts… Read more »

Lyn E
Lyn E
24 days ago

Equating the wholesale price of potential renewable energy with ‘extra money for investment in Wales, for Wales NHS, social care, education, housing and more’ is nonsense.

Even if ‘Wales owned those resources as a nation’ (which implies excluding the private sector), only a small fraction of the total wholesale value would be available for those purposes. Most of that value would be absorbed in the cost of constructing, operating and distributing the energy. Only the profits, royalties and taxes would be available for social investment. Those would be an order of magnitude lower than you calculate.

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
24 days ago
Reply to  Lyn E

More negativity. You really are opposed to Independence. This opinion piece indicates a few examples of what is available. Three studies in fact. You are correct, there are costs but to state that most of that value would be adsorbed shows, once again your desperation. The large part of your costs are one off costs, the construction and installation, while the benefits are long term. To play down the significant income from these few examples,highlights your usual desperation. Income that, as I indicated but you chose to ignore, is not just for social investment, but to grow the economy. Unless… Read more »

Lyn E
Lyn E
24 days ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

The desperation is yours, shown by your repeated misuse of numbers. Once again, you confuse gross with net (you admit I am correct to point to costs) as well as presenting potential as actual. There would be some economic gains from independence. Whether they would exceed the losses is debatable and would depend on terms and circumstances. But assessing that must be done on the basis of realistic estimates. Estimating the future margin on renewable energy is difficult given the volatility of energy prices and the pace of technological change. But my judgement that most of the value would be… Read more »

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
24 days ago
Reply to  Lyn E

You are merely a comment predator. You trawl through picking bits up that you can criticise. You offer nothing to the debate. I suggested previously that you share with us your thoughts on the way forward for Wales. Little response to that. That’s a bit more challenging. If you do get a sensible and positive thought, Be free to share it.

HarrisR
HarrisR
24 days ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

I feel the same way about those comment predators long ago who claimed the Titanic was NOT unsinkable.. Where was their positivism about that heroic endeavour? Just nit picking criticism for the sake of it.

Building the new Wales is very similar, there may be huge icebergs & “scrapes”, and many unfortunate casualties along the way but rest assured, they won’t be amongst the Wales political officer class who securely weather (and prosper) every storm.

Lyn E
Lyn E
24 days ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

I’ll take that as confirmation that you have no answers to the points I have raised.

CapM
CapM
23 days ago
Reply to  Lyn E

This is a debate where one side lays it’s ideas out for a future option and the most vociferous of those that find fault in them can’t offer any ideas of their own to support the continuance of the present as the better option.

There are examples over time and on many issues of such radical vs reactionary debates
And a person might be a radical on one issue say workers rights and a reactionary on another say maintaining the United Kingdom.

Lyn E
Lyn E
23 days ago
Reply to  CapM

Wrong. The argument is between those who manipulate numbers for political advantage and those who treat numbers with respect.

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
23 days ago
Reply to  Lyn E

Your argument would have more force if you came up with any numbers to be ‘ treated with respect ‘ So far all we have had is your judgement and a couple of unconnected ‘ fractions’.You say that the end result would only be a fraction of what was quoted. Well nine tenths is a fraction, as is one tenth. So enlighten us to which of these respected fractions is it to be.

Lyn E
Lyn E
23 days ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

Untrue. I said ‘small fraction’, stated that I believed most of the wholesale value would be absorbed in costs, and suggested that profits, royalties and taxes could be ‘an order or magnitude’ lower than your £10+ billion. At this point, it would be foolish to pretend to be more accurate. Those guesstimates are probably generous, but the energy market and technology are so volatile, and Welsh independence so remote, that they cannot be regarded as reliable. But I am confident that you are relying too heavily on Wales’s energy potential to pay for Welsh statehood. It would need a broader… Read more »

Last edited 23 days ago by Lyn E
CapM
CapM
23 days ago
Reply to  Lyn E

But I am confident that you are relying too heavily on Wales’s energy potential to pay for Welsh statehood. It would need a broader economic base.

You should also be confident that as things stand whatever Cymru’s energy potential is it will pay for UK statehood.

Most of the UK state is England, fifty six million plus to Cymru’s just over three million.

Perhaps you could use your grasp of fractions to work out which one of the two’s economic base will receive the most benefit.

Lyn E
Lyn E
22 days ago
Reply to  CapM

Don’t confuse formal independence with the distribution of the surplus from economic activity. The countries of Latin America have been independent states for 200 years but have been exploited by first British then US capital.

Constitutional change would not in itself guarantee that Wales would receive all the benefits from its resources.

Llew Gruffudd.
Llew Gruffudd.
23 days ago
Reply to  Lyn E

Every time you comment, you dig a deeper hole for yourself. In spite of the fact that you constantly carp about others providing the evidence, once again we have to rely on your ‘ beliefs ‘. Your small fraction is still a guess and a not very good one. I, at least have a grasp that the construction and implementation costs are a long term investment, as carried out by the most successful businesses. I am also aware that maintenance and running costs are very low compared to other forms of energy generation, So not a small fraction. You also… Read more »

Lyn E
Lyn E
22 days ago
Reply to  Llew Gruffudd.

Renewable energy is indeed a capital intensive business. But you appear to think that fixed capital does not have to be paid for. Do you think that the suppliers of equipment (e.g. solar panels manufactured in China) will give free gifts to Wales? Payment for those will require up-front investment or borrowing. In either case, that will be a cost that must subtracted from the wholesale value to determine the residual surplus. This is elementary accounting. You correctly argue that Wales should invest in skills. Good, but energy resources are unlikely to provide £10+ billion to be spent on this… Read more »

CapM
CapM
23 days ago
Reply to  Lyn E

I ‘m guessing that you think you’re one of those who treat ‘numbers with respect’.

If so it appears that you ‘respect’ those numbers so much that you protect them from even the gaze of anyone who might question why you extol their virtues.

Lyn E
Lyn E
22 days ago
Reply to  CapM

I refuse to invent numbers where they are not known.

Last edited 22 days ago by Lyn E
CapM
CapM
22 days ago
Reply to  Lyn E

You’ve been making your argument for maintaining the UK as the nation state with those unknown numbers since the beginning of this long ever circulating discussion.

Lyn E
Lyn E
22 days ago
Reply to  CapM

I am not making an argument for the UK as the nation state. When have I stated that?

My argument is simply that to examine the pros and cons of Welsh independence, all sides should seek to be as accurate as possible in their evidence, admit uncertainty, and avoid distorting numbers to advance their case.

CapM
CapM
22 days ago
Reply to  Lyn E

‘I am not making an argument for the UK as the nation state. When have I stated that?

You’ve made very many comments on this issue on many articles that anyone can read.
You can’t pretend the comments don’t exist.

Last edited 22 days ago by CapM
Lyn E
Lyn E
21 days ago
Reply to  CapM

Please reread those comments. At no point have I argued for ‘maintaining the UK as the nation state’. I have not ruled out Welsh independence.

Instead, I have stated that the case for it depends on terms and circumstances, and that those should be realistically assessed with due regard for truth and acknowledgement of uncertainty.

CapM
CapM
21 days ago
Reply to  Lyn E

Wishing your comments away won’t work either.

Lyn E
Lyn E
21 days ago
Reply to  CapM

Which comments do you think I am trying to wish away? Identify those and I will consider them, either to confirm, elaborate or retract.

But that would require evidence, for which you appear to have little respect.

Adrian
Adrian
24 days ago

Apart from their independence hobby horse there’s little to choose between Plaid Cymru and most of the other parties, since they’re all signed up to the same ridiculous ideologies. If someone disagrees with Net Zero, takes issue with mass immigration – legal an illegal, or doesn’t want the gender identity fairy tale shoved down our throats at every turn, there really is only Reform for them in Wales.

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