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The trouble with England – why rioting in the UK has not spread to Scotland and Wales

11 Aug 2024 6 minute read
Police officers with people attending a protest in London following the fatal stabbing of three children in Southport. Photo Jordan Pettitt/PA Wire

Marco Antonsich, Reader in Political Geography, Loughborough University, Michael Skey
Lecturer in Media and Communications, Loughborough University

The violent unrest that has caused so much damage in the UK has not in fact happened across the UK. It has almost been exclusively confined to England.

True, violent riots also took place in Belfast, Northern Ireland, but, interestingly enough, even there they were largely perpetrated by British loyalists, along with a few far-right extremists from Dublin.

The counter-protestors were seemingly mostly drawn from Northern Ireland’s Catholic community.

At least up until now, Scotland and Wales have remained peaceful. When considering why this is the case, we might look at how the English are positioned within the United Kingdom.

The union

The union itself has been, first and foremost, an English product. It was the English crown which extended its power first over the British Isles and then over a great part of the world. The Acts of Union in 1707 between England and Scotland led to the creation of Great Britain.

The English and Welsh crowns had been “united” much earlier in 1284 under the auspices of the former and, after the partition of Ireland, Northern Ireland joined the Union in 1922.

While the Scottish, Welsh and Irish played substantial roles in managing the British empire, the English were its primary driving force. This means that the reduction of Britain’s role in the world in the wake of the break up of the British empire has arguably been felt more keenly by the English.

2018 YouGov survey showed that almost three times as many residents in England thought the country’s best years were in the past than in its future. In Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, by contrast, many more people think “their country’s best years lie ahead rather than behind them”.

People gathered at Trafalgar Square in central London during a protest organised by Tommy Robinson. Photo Maja Smiejkowska/PA Wire

A “nostalgic yearning” for the lost imperial power is part and parcel of this nostalgic English national imaginary. This helps explain why protesters and rioters have been chanting Rule Britannia.

Rule Britannia was written and set to music in England in 1740 and soon came to be associated with British imperial power. It is still sung at the Last Night of the Proms (a prestigious annual music event) and by English sports fans, once again demonstrating the extent to which England and Britain are conflated by the English.

If the loss of empire and perceived global standing is one aspect of English melancholia, then changing relations within the United Kingdom itself are another. Many English people continue to treat “British” and “English” as interchangeable labels. When asked, they find it difficult to differentiate between the two.

In the same 2018 YouGov survey, 80% of the residents of England identified strongly as English, but 82% also strongly identified as British, pointing to how “British and English identities are intertwined”.

The 2021 census data shows that in England, 14.9% identified as English only with 54.8% as British only. In Scotland the equivalent figures were 56% (Scottish only) and 15% (British only) and in Wales 55.2% (Welsh only) and 18.5% (British only)

The fact that England has not been part of the devolution process has added to this confusion – and to the sense of grievance among the English. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have their own national government and assemblies, but there is no separate administration that deals with purely English affairs.

This not only reinforces the idea that English and British are one and the same, but also feeds resentment among the English, who see the people in other parts of the UK getting their own representation. This is particularly the case for English people who live geographically and culturally far from London, the seat of power in the UK.

This also helps explaining why Brexit, with its ambition “to take back control” was mainly supported by English voters rather than those in other parts of the UK.

The same 2018 YouGov survey also reveals how the English nation is mainly perceived by its members as a white nation. Only one-third of respondents said their “country’s diversity is an important part of their identity”.

The warning signs were there

Anti-immigration sentiments are certainly not confined to England. The opposition between “natives” and “foreigners” are very much at the root of any national thinking. So it’s possible that anti-immigration protests might flare up elsewhere in the UK. However, both Scotland and Wales have been able to provide more progressive and inclusive narratives of nation that not only acknowledge ethnic diversity but are articulated in opposition to the dominant English.

It therefore seems plausible to suggest that the anomaly of the English – a powerful majority which often perceives itself as overlooked and ignored among the British nations – might play a role in explaining the current wave of protests and riots.

During the last two Euro football championships, hopes for a new England, progressive, inclusive and forward looking, seemed to emerge. The present violent protests have significantly tainted those hopes. But simply pointing a finger at far-right thugs, as the government has done, treating the unrest as mere criminal incidents, doesn’t really get to the heart of the issue. Although far-right extremists took centre stage, just behind them were standing many ordinary English people, men and women, some with children, who presumably shared the same views and feelings.

Although only 8% of Britons said in a recent YouGov poll that they sympathised with the rioters, 58% expressed sympathies with those who protested peacefully .

After all the mess has been cleared from the streets, it would be advisable for the government and society as a whole, to have a debate about what “England” and “Englishness” stand for in a Union profoundly divided by rising nationalism and in a world where Britannia no longer rules the waves.

This article was first published on The Conversation
The Conversation


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Mr Williams
Mr Williams
3 months ago

An excellent article. It shows that governments, while rightly should be condemning far right thuggery (and they should also condemn the far left hate-spreading!), should also talk to and listen to the people they represent ( – not rule!).

Last edited 3 months ago by Mr Williams
Mr Williams
Mr Williams
3 months ago
Reply to  Mr Williams

The only alternative to co-existence is co-destruction
Jawaharlal Nehru.

A good quote we should use against the far right and far left, while we are campaigning for (or discussing how to regain) sovereignty for Wales, while keeping the moral high ground.

Frank Sterle Jr.
Frank Sterle Jr.
3 months ago
Reply to  Mr Williams

In regards to race riots, the HUMAN race seems to desperately need a unifying fate-defining common cause. Perhaps a vicious extraterrestrial attack is what we collectively need to brutally endure in order to survive the long-term from ourselves. . Humanity would genuinely unite for the first time to defend against, attack and defeat the humanicidal multi-tentacled ETs. The latter would need to be an even greater nemesis than our own formidably divisive politics and perceptions of differences, both real and perceived, especially those involving color, nationality, religion and race. . During this much-needed human allegiance, we’d be forced to work… Read more »

Iago
Iago
3 months ago
Reply to  Mr Williams

What does far left hate spreading mean? The hatred of the far right? You think you can peacefully coexist with people that don’t want you to exist?

Frank Sterle Jr.
Frank Sterle Jr.
3 months ago
Reply to  Mr Williams

There’s so much anger out there. I myself have been inexplicably angrier over the last couple of years and sometimes consider that I may someday leave this world that way. . Collectively and maybe even individually, we humans seem hopelessly prone to our politics of scale and differences. Still, from within ourselves we, as individuals, can resist flawed yet normalized human/societal nature thus behavior. . Perhaps somewhat relevant to this are the words of the long-deceased [1984] American sociologist Stanley Milgram, of Obedience Experiments fame/infamy: “It may be that we are puppets — puppets controlled by the strings of society.… Read more »

Susan Davies
Susan Davies
3 months ago

Interesting points, though I’m very wary of complacency about the underlying issues in Wales. If we shrug and think “not a problem here” aren’t we showing the exact same carelessness that has let the situation fester and reach this point in England? We may not have had riots, but there is clearly similar sentiment out there when you consider the protests in Llanelli this year and how this played out in the election locally. There’s also been the notable rise of the Reform vote in Wales generally, which I think we could fairly say usually aligns with grievance and anti-immigration… Read more »

Richard
Richard
3 months ago
Reply to  Susan Davies

And the Reform party came within some 1,500 votes of winning in Llanelli at the recent general election.

Annibendod
Annibendod
3 months ago
Reply to  Richard

Only because the Tory vote in Llanelli switched to Reform. Compare the combined Conservative and Brexit party vote in 2019 with the combined Conservative and Reform vote in 2024. Barely a difference at all. People miss the fact that the Labour vote dropped dramatically, Plaid’s went up significantly (a very close third), and there were noteable increases for Libs and Greens. Indeed, had those who switched to Libs & Green voted tactically, Plaid’s Rhodri Davies would now be Llanelli’s MP. Reform hit their ceiling in Llanelli. Plaid did not and could very much take the seat at the next election.

Meic
Meic
3 months ago
Reply to  Annibendod

I worry when a read complacency regarding the growth of Reform. All those who want rid of the Senedd will find a home under the Reform banner. And Labour have been woeful as the holders of power in Cardiff.

Annibendod
Annibendod
3 months ago
Reply to  Meic

No complacency on my part in Llanelli. I saw it first hand.

Llewz
Llewz
3 months ago
Reply to  Meic

Their position on devolution is “devolve by default”.

Lifelong Plaid voter by the way.

Dafydd
Dafydd
3 months ago
Reply to  Susan Davies

Well said Susan.

Auto dismissal of peoples thoughts and concerns with ‘far right’ labels as is the far let’s default retort plus brushing often valid socio economic concerns under the carpet is will address and quell nothing. As in so much these days emotion trumps the pragmatic logical addressing of issues. And then gammons kick off and everyone loses…

Iago
Iago
3 months ago
Reply to  Dafydd

How can you be pragmatic with people that don’t want you to exist? Acceptance of far right beliefs is what caused this mess in the first place.

You keep someone with “valid and legitimate” concerns on immigration long enough and they’ll show themselves to be a bigot eventually

Kenneth Flemington
Kenneth Flemington
3 months ago
Reply to  Iago

No bigotry except on the left like yours. We are haply for peoe to believe differently to us because freedom to do so is importznt to us. On the other hand you and the left think that anyond who doesn’t share your warped view should be stamped upon and cancelled. Its the left of politics that contains the bigots, and sadly in large numbeds

J Jones
J Jones
3 months ago

The land currently known as England has historically been an arrivals terminal for a multitude of people crossing the channel, including the English themselves. Even the English language is a mongrel esparanto, combining the different languages that came with the migration.

The distant hills and mountains hindered migration to the north and west, which is probably why we still have an indigenous language and our own national identity.

Dameisen
Dameisen
3 months ago
Reply to  J Jones

Brilliant point. I’ve always wished I was a full Celt. My Nan is from Wales and I feel more identity with Wales than England.

Kenneth Flemington
Kenneth Flemington
3 months ago
Reply to  Dameisen

How sad

Leomo
Leomo
3 months ago
Reply to  J Jones

This is a nonsense not based in fact. Actually DNA evidence shows that more than 90% of Britons are direct descendants of ancient Britons.

Kenneth Flemington
Kenneth Flemington
3 months ago
Reply to  Leomo

I am 50% English, mothers side, 25% German, fathers side ( grandad was apparently in the Kaisers army) and 25% Viking, don’t know but might have been part of my mothers Englishness. However I an English to my very core. I am proud of Britains pre 1947 history, proud of the British Empire.

Gareth
Gareth
3 months ago

Between 60 and 160 million people died in India, as a direct result of British policy in the country during the days of the British Raj. I am able to post more links if required. Some empire ehh.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/2/how-british-colonial-policy-killed-100-million-indians&ved=2ahUKEwjswvKV8e-HAxUeSEEAHYeJITMQFnoECCMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2qancJJ10hmGVtshKv8Krt

Johnny Gamble
Johnny Gamble
3 months ago

Are you proud of what happened to the Tasmanian Aboriginals?

Nia James
Nia James
3 months ago

I’ve been fortunate to travel the world during my lifetime and I can honestly say that the English are the most confused people on Earth when it comes to their national identity. They always revert to the English / British default option. When I say, unequivocally, that I am Welsh I’ve been told over the years that I’m not because really I am British or, incredibly, English. When they say they are British I ask English people to define Britishness, it is invariably stuff like their Royal Family, fish ‘n’ chips, and the English football team. It is never the… Read more »

J Jones
J Jones
3 months ago

As fake social media information has been used to encourage the rioting, it needs to be mentioned that Wales Online included their own version of click-bait fake news on this.

There were no far right demonstrations in Aberystwyth or Tenby, no entrances blocked or shops closed in Cardiff, hence a small counter demo being subdued. Those there and absent knowing that the far right don’t march around Cymru waving an imperialist flag that we are happy to be excluded from.

Frank
Frank
3 months ago

Have you noticed how the english media are categorising demonstrations, lootings, violence etc. as being in England and Wales when sod all has happened in Wales yet!!! Now if it was good news it would be england only.

Mab Meirion
Mab Meirion
3 months ago
Reply to  Frank

Like the cricket…

Stephen Owen
Stephen Owen
3 months ago
Reply to  Mab Meirion

Sky News has referred to the protests in England and Belfast

Fi yn unig
Fi yn unig
3 months ago
Reply to  Frank

I would normally be inclined to agree with you. However, I have found that most outlets, to be fair, have made the correct distinction whilst using the term ‘across the UK’ to include Belfast.

Linda Jones
Linda Jones
3 months ago

Some interesting points made but the article doesn’t really delve deep enough into the underlying trends in Wales. For example the article ignores the fact that Wales also overwhelmingly voted Brexit as a means to reduce immigration and to secure our borders. This hasn’t happened. Also the Reform party and its anti mass immigration policies are doing pretty well in Wales. With regard to England I suspect the idea of hundreds of thousands of people arriving in England on small boats each year, without any of the usual background checks, worries many. As France is a peaceful country it may… Read more »

Editors assemble
Editors assemble
3 months ago
Reply to  Linda Jones

The word ‘overwhelmingly’ is doing some heavy lifting there. The result was 52.5/47.5 here. Hardly overwhelming. A shade higher than the overall UK result, but lower than the leave result in England, which was ultimately the deciding factor, given their much larger population.

Linda Jones
Linda Jones
3 months ago

Ok but the support for Brexit in Wales was not mentioned nor was the fact Brexit won in Wales. Anti immigrant Reform also came second in 13 Welsh seats.
If the rise of right wing politics is to be tackled the issues have to be confronted not side stepped.

Ernie The Smallholder
Ernie The Smallholder
3 months ago
Reply to  Linda Jones

You have made the point why Cymru, Scotland, Ireland and England should be separate countries and not controlled by one centralist regime in London. Centralised control has never worked in the USSR and Yugoslavia and has always ended in failure. We are seeing this also for the UK. Cymru Wales, Scotland and Ireland must have sovereign independent parliaments. England needs its own sovereign parliament addressing issues in England. All 4 nations should be individual members of the UN and EFTA / EEA / EU. The EU is a confederation of independent nations within Europe and is the future for co-operation… Read more »

Kenneth Flemington
Kenneth Flemington
3 months ago

Like devolutiin has benefitted anyone but career politiciabs ?

Kenneth Flemington
Kenneth Flemington
3 months ago

Almost twice as many people voted for Brexit as for the current Labour Party. If the 16+ million is not overwhelming what does that say about the 9+ million Labour votes (less than Jeremy Corbyn got in what was the worst Labour GE result for over 80 years, and only twice as many as the start-up Reform UK Party)

Iron Spider
Iron Spider
3 months ago
Reply to  Linda Jones

Wales didn’t “overwhelmingly” vote for Brexit any more than anywhere else. To use that word you’d have to be in supermajority territory. 48% to 52% is a narrow win.

And “English people living in Wales tilted it towards Brexit, research finds” was a Guardian headline in 2019.

Elaine
Elaine
3 months ago
Reply to  Iron Spider

Not only the Guardian but here on Nation following a study by Professor Danny Dorling:

https://nation.cymru/news/wales-brexit-vote-caused-by-english-retirees-oxford-university/

Richard Thomas
Richard Thomas
3 months ago
Reply to  Elaine

That “study” wasn’t a study at all, just supposition by Dorling that English people in Wales favoured Brexit. Despite that, if you actually look at how the vote went, the strongest pro-Brexit vote was in the valleys, highest of all in Blaenau Gwent, the district with the lowest English born populations, while Gwynedd and Ceredigion, famously ‘White settler’ country voted Remain, as did the heavily Anglicised Monmouthshire.
Simply ducking out and blaming the English isn’t good enough. There is a rising tide on the far right in Wales and it should be recognised and dealt with.

Ap Kenneth
Ap Kenneth
3 months ago
Reply to  Linda Jones

“Wales also overwhelmingly voted Brexit” – 52% V 48% is hardly overwhelming.
“hundreds of thousands of people arriving in England on small boats each year,” – 45,774 in 2022, 29,437 in 2023 is not hundreds of thousands
You need to be more careful with your language.

Stephen Owen
Stephen Owen
3 months ago
Reply to  Linda Jones

I wouldn’t say that people in Wales voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, it was more of a slight majority in favour which is quite different

Kenneth Flemington
Kenneth Flemington
3 months ago
Reply to  Linda Jones

Its not COMPETITION for social housing. Incomers are GIVEN social housing out of all proportion to their numbers. Just 1 or 2 percent below 50% of London social housing is actually rented by an immigrant. That may partly explain why the English are angry.

Gareth
Gareth
3 months ago
Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
3 months ago
Reply to  Linda Jones

For a start, the only immigration to have any real impact on Wales is that from England. The very few who arrive as a result of landing on the south coast of England are statistically irrelevant, and even more irrelevant when considered as a threat to anyone’s healthcare, housing, education or any other factor when compare to the threat posed by the very wealthy. Your enemy doesn’t arrive in a rubber boat, but in a Bentley or a Rolls Royce. (Other luxury cars are available.) When it comes to numbers, there are not ‘hundreds of thousands’ arriving this way every… Read more »

Wake-the-fuck-up
Johnny Gamble
Johnny Gamble
3 months ago
Reply to  Linda Jones

Can you provide evidence that hundreds of thousands of people have arrived in Kent on small boats?
The United Kingdom isn’t even in the top 40 for it’s intake of refugees/asylum seekers.

Annibendod
Annibendod
3 months ago

This is very much spot on. It is clear that the Unionist parties also hold the Anglo-British conflation falsehood to be true and foist it upon all and sundry. The UK is its political manifestation. This is nothing more than imperialism … and they have the affrontery to accuse those of us who stand firm in our long established nationhoods of being “nationalists”. Let me make it abundantly clear. Those of us who stand for British Pluralism, for democratic States for our historic nations, we are correct, we stand on the moral high ground. It is the right of every… Read more »

Y Cymro
Y Cymro
3 months ago

Seeing England had an empire, and the empire was England’s not Britain’s I might add, suppose why those race riots largely occurred in England with one exception in Belfast , Northern Ireland, no doubt fuelled by loyalist communities. There’s an influx of asylum seekers in Kent because it is the closest point to Europe, not forgetting those asylum seekers only know England seeing they turned half the globe pink and historically where power & financial hub has been centered. Also those thugs rioting love the idea England controlled once half the world and they fear becoming a small fish in… Read more »

Richard Thomas
Richard Thomas
3 months ago
Reply to  Y Cymro

Scotland was involved in the Empire up to their necks. Street after street in Glasgow is named after slave owners and other profiteers from Empire. Scotland got the highest per capita slave owner compensation in the UK. Scotland has a hell of a lot of shame it hides now pretending it was all the fault of English, it’s a bit like a sort of reverse Andy Murray syndrome.

Mab Meirion
Mab Meirion
3 months ago
Reply to  Richard Thomas

Cymru was there big time but we don’t like to admit it…a fully paid up member and among the last to pack it in…

Riki
Riki
3 months ago
Reply to  Mab Meirion

Wrong, one question. Why do so many Black people have names that originate in Wales? Can’t see their ancestors taking on or adopting the name of slave owners. In reality they adopted the names of those who were involved in their liberation.

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
3 months ago
Reply to  Riki

That is the single most utterly stupid comment I’ve seen in a long time. Many slaves DID adopt the Welsh family names of their Welsh owners and exploiters. Henry Morgan of Llanrumney, the famous pirate became Lieutenant Governor of Jamaica and was the owner of many slaves, quite possibly the biggest slave owner on the island at one point. Wales gained economically from slavery, from the export of flannel for clothing to iron products such as chains and shackles to the profits and compensation payments that were paid to slave owners upon abolition. Penrhyn castle and the undustrialisation of much… Read more »

Ben Davies
Ben Davies
3 months ago
Reply to  Richard Thomas

While I agree that a handful of rich individuals and opportunist made their name from slavery, I think it’s a bit much to presume that they were up to their necks in it. If the Welsh were capitalising on the British Empire’s spoils, we wouldn’t be where we are today. Rape of the Fair Country springs to mind. The Empire was a means to centralise power and means into the hands of the few. As it remains today with the so-called Union. Let’s not kid ourselves. I was taught British (English) history at school, in the heartlands of Y Fro… Read more »

John Ellis
John Ellis
3 months ago

‘The union itself has been, first and foremost, an English product.’ … ‘This means that the reduction of Britain’s role in the world in the wake of the break up of the British empire has arguably been felt more keenly by the English.’ ‘A “nostalgic yearning” for the lost imperial power is part and parcel of this nostalgic English national imaginary. This helps explain why protesters and rioters have been chanting Rule Britannia.’ I think that there’s something in the argument presented here. I grew up as a child outside Manchester, so my early environment was entirely English – though maybe… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by John Ellis
Annibendod
Annibendod
3 months ago
Reply to  John Ellis

Spot on John. During the Brexit campaign I saw one voxpop of an English gentleman who said “We used to have an empire. I think that was a good thing. I think we should have one again.” There is a minority that think like that.

John Ellis
John Ellis
3 months ago
Reply to  Annibendod

Indeed. Until the Brexit referendum I’d thought that, while such wistful longings probably existed in ‘middle England’, most English folk were nonetheless aware that the days of a British empire were gone beyond recovery. The outcome of the referendum suggested that I really needed to at least modify that estimation!

Iron Spider
Iron Spider
3 months ago

It’s ironic really that the nation born of mass immigration is complaining about mass immigration. Doubly so that most of those protesting probably voted for this in 2016, back when there were no small boats and net migration was one quarter of what it is today.

Blegywryd
Blegywryd
3 months ago

Sadly, ideas of English nationality seem to be based not on love of England’s “green and pleasant land”, the wealth of its literature and music, but on “biffing Johnny foreigner”. Bizarrely, the statue in Parliament Square in London is not of Harold Godwinson, who died fighting to preserve England’s freedom from a foreign oppressor but of that oppressor – William of Normandy – himself. The subjugation of the British Isles and the growth of the Empire are seen as “good things”. Until the English wake up to the fact that the threat to English identity comes from the modern successors… Read more »

Ianto
Ianto
3 months ago

Yep, no rioting in Wales – yet. But pillocks like RTD2 are working hard to change that.

Jack
Jack
3 months ago

I am not convinced that the thuggish violence was based on any sense of nationality or extreme right-wing politics . Manipulated nationality may have been a minor trigger for the current riots, nothing more. I think one should consider Lord Sewell’s 2021 report pointing out that the white working class (especially male) is the largest disadvantaged people in the UK – and the centre of the deprived group is in the NE of England where the riots happened. Its not a Welsh / Scottish are better thing – the riot centre is merely matter of geography reflecting the worst social… Read more »

Annibendod
Annibendod
3 months ago
Reply to  Jack

“the riot centre is merely matter of geography reflecting the worst social deprivation of the UK.”

Then we’d expect rioting in Wales if your hypothesis was perfectly accurate. Deprivation is the highest in Western Europe in Wales. I’m not denying that it is a factor. That much is clear. There are other factors at work however.

Bethan
Bethan
3 months ago
Reply to  Jack

As someone who has had the misfortune of residing in the part of England you speak of I would have to disagree with your theory. They are very much nationalists. In fact I would say many are vocally xenophobic and have been for at least a decade based on my own personal experience. When locals learned of my nationality in these areas I was subjected to patronising tolerance at best and outright abuse at worst. However, I had two things to shield me from such treatment. A semi-neutral accent and my skin colour. With these traits I managed to hide… Read more »

CapM
CapM
3 months ago
Reply to  Jack

The poor white males explanation doesn’t really adequately explain what we’ve witnessed recently as there are also poor brown males and poor black males.
Of these poor males it’s the white ones who attempted to burn down an occupied hotel, a library etc and blamed their poverty on poor people of a different colour to themselves.

Colin Lambert
Colin Lambert
3 months ago

Some good points but academics shouldn’t massage evidence or ignore it completely. Everybody in Wales knows that the Brexit vote was 52.5% for leaving. Building the Empire was mainly an English project? Scots were disproportionately represented in the many professions, the army, medicine, administration that served the imperial project. Then there is “the Union was mainly an English project “. Clearly no one mentioned to them the Darien Scheme and it’s disastrous effect, almost bankrupting Scotland. The Union, though unwelcome to many, brought about a customs union of great benefit to Scotland to this day. There is more misspeaking about… Read more »

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
3 months ago
Reply to  Colin Lambert

Most people in Wales do not identify as British anything. Most of us identify as Welsh. If there is any anomaly, it is in the way in which the statistics are collected. Many surveys do not allow for separate listings, considering it adequate to offer a ‘White British’ option for people from Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England. Personally I refuse to be counted if that’s the only option, as I believe a standalone Welsh option should be a legal requirement in demographic monitoring in Wales.

Riki
Riki
3 months ago
Reply to  Padi Phillips

Which is a perversion of any historical understanding. To be “Welsh” is to be British. One people who were called by two different names by two different cultures spread across centuries.

Hogyn y Gogledd
Hogyn y Gogledd
3 months ago
Reply to  Riki

“British” is not the same as “Brythonic”

Riki
Riki
3 months ago

No, but the term Brit)ish derives from Briton and Brythonic. The English news literally calls anyone from Britain “Britons”.

Riki
Riki
3 months ago

You’d rather abandoned 2500 years of British history because you think you are getting one over the auld enemy, you aren’t. By doing that, they are getting one over you. They adopted our terms, gave us a new one by forcing their language on us, one that is highly disrespectful and you think that’s okay? Or incorrect when pointed out?

Hogyn y Gogledd
Hogyn y Gogledd
3 months ago
Reply to  Riki

I don’t understand what point you are trying to make. Might you be more coherent in Welsh?

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
3 months ago
Reply to  Riki

Have you ever not head of the meaning of words changing over time? If we are to take a genuine sense of historical understanding then maybe up until the mid 19th century the ambiguity of the meaning of British might just about be acceptable, with Welsh people still sometimes being referred to as the ‘British race’ and Cymraeg referred to as the British tongue, but much after than date the term became completely hijacked and now, to all intents and purposes, for good or ill, British and English are interchangeable terms. Trying to reclaim the term at this late stage… Read more »

CapM
CapM
3 months ago
Reply to  Padi Phillips

Have a heart.
If you remove the string from a one string fiddle the fiddler can’t play any tune at all.

CapM
CapM
3 months ago
Reply to  Colin Lambert

 “At 90.6% Wales has the highest number of people who identify as ‘white British’.” 

That’s not correct
From
https://www.gov.wales/ethnic-group-national-identity-language-and-religion-wales-census-2021-html#110368

90.6% of the population identified as “White: Welsh, English, Scottish, Northern Irish or British” in 2021.

55.2% of the population in Wales (1.7 million) selected a “Welsh” only identity
8.1% of the population (251,000) in Wales selected both a “Welsh” and “British” identity,
18.5% of the population of Wales identified with a “British” only identity

Riki
Riki
3 months ago
Reply to  CapM

It’s weird because the people of Wales are the only people who can claim Welsh and British as interchangeable. Because one term came from English forced usage and the other, Latin usage by the Britons. what do they have in common? Both terms were designed for the same people. To be Welsh is fundamentally to be British.

Riki
Riki
3 months ago

The English and Welsh crowns were never “united”, if it had been why the need of annexation huh? Why haven’t anyone, even the tudors had England and Wales as equals?! Because no English monarch, even The Welsh tudors ever had our crown. The joining of England and Wales happened in 1536, why does everyone insist on ignoring Glyndwrs actions?!!!

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
3 months ago

I don’t know whether the more or less unique factors surrounding immigration into Wales have any effect leading to the relative calm and lack of racist violence on our streets, but surely immigration cannot be properly considered unless it includes the very considerable numbers of English people who move here every year, which changes the way in which the debate is framed. Migrants who arrive in Wales from diverse homelands via rubber boats* landing in the coast of England have far less of an impact than migrants from England, and are, in general far easier to integrate, and often far… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Padi Phillips
Annibendod
Annibendod
3 months ago
Reply to  Padi Phillips

Take a look at this reddit Padi: https://www.reddit.com/r/Wales/comments/1ea8cte/to_people_moving_to_wales_what_is_it_thats/?chainedPosts=t3_7qqapm Not everyone who moves to Wales does it for cheaper housing. Clearly some do, but many do for a host of other reasons. The reasons for staying are what interest me. I’d say most like our culture and way of life. That being the case, we should be making every effort to share our language and culture with those people and integrate them into our communities. They are an asset. We’re so existentially panicked (I confess to feeling that way very often) that we have become too defensive. I think the time… Read more »

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
3 months ago
Reply to  Annibendod

Thanks for reminding me. I have always known that not all who move here do so for purely financial reasons. And even among those who do often fall in love with the place, and I agree, they are an asset that should be valued – not sure about the love bombing though, but that might just be my introvert nature… What I do find disconcerting as someone who remembers how Cymraeg ei hiaith the western seaboard was in the 60s 70s and even much of the 80s is the loss of that language over vast areas. I certainly can’t blame… Read more »

Attila96
Attila96
3 months ago

This was a really interesting read. The idea that Cymru sees its best years ahead and its worst years behind is certainly true for how I have always seen it

Jason holden
Jason holden
3 months ago

I’m pretty sure the 1707 act of union was by a Scottish king? How was it entirely English?

Annibendod
Annibendod
3 months ago
Reply to  Jason holden

No, it was the England & Wales parliament and the Scottish parliament. The king could only rubber stamp the act despite his enthusiasm for it.

Padi Phillips
Padi Phillips
3 months ago
Reply to  Annibendod

It might have been better had the Scots not bankrupted themselves with daft colonial adventures. Someone obviously saw them coming with the Darien region of Central America!

CapM
CapM
3 months ago
Reply to  Jason holden

However much James VI of Scotland wanted to be James I of England and he and the Scottish aristocracy wanted a political union it was England not Scotland that decided that those two things happened and on terms that they were happy with.

Which is something I tend to mention when faced with bragging about we have King, separate legal system, banknotes, tartan, etc!

S Duggan
S Duggan
3 months ago

Ultimately if England wants to find it’s identity than it too must seek independence from the UK. Over the past two decades Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish identities have grown and devolution has also seen more progressive policies in those nations. England is still ruled by an archaic, out of date, past pining Westminster and is a deeply divided country, with plenty of wealth in the south east and poverty elsewhere. It’s only a matter of time before the Union is dissolved and England will have to resolve those divisions once and for all.

Last edited 3 months ago by S Duggan
Ralphbragg49@googlemail.com
3 months ago

It’s not so much that Britain (England) does not gave uts own representation like Scotland, Wales & Ireland, it’s the fact that we do, but, all the other nations are allowed to participate in parliament, and vote on things, where as itdoes not work the other way round

CapM
CapM
3 months ago

“other nations are allowed to participate in parliament, and vote on things, where as itdoes not work the other way round”

That’s because the large majority of Unionist MPs want it that way.
Scotland and Cymru’s Unionist MPs exist to support the aims of their parties.
England’s Unionist MPs want their parties to exert influence over Scotland and Cymru not just England.

Annibendod
Annibendod
3 months ago

It does. It VERY much does. That’s the precise problem with the UK. Not only does Westminster legislate on so called reserved matters that impact Wales and Scotland, it also unilaterally revokes Welsh and Scottish laws the government of the day doesn’t like for political reasons. Moreover, the Tory party which has not had a democratic mandate in Scotland for 70 years, not ever in the case of Wales, gets to govern our nations regardless some 70% of the time. It’s ludicrous. Hardie, Lloyd-George, Churchill all understood the UK constitution to be faulty and each advocated “Home Rule” at different… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Annibendod
Eric
Eric
3 months ago

Great article. I think it’s worth mentioning the crucial role of “social” media in all these turmoils. It’s very easily exploitable to make people believe all sorts of nonsense. Blaming the foreigners for a country’s troubles is an ancient strategy, and it’s always worked, sadly. We don’t ever seem to learn from History. It has been proved that several state actors have been involved in destabilisation campaigns based on “social” media in various countries of the world. Perhaps the UK should change the legislation so that people such as Musk and Zuckerberg are made to answer for the destructive role… Read more »

MatthewH
MatthewH
3 months ago

This article is overly simplistic. The far right has been on the rise across the whole of Europe and almost came to power in France so it is certainly not a problem confined to the English. Also the disorder has been perpetrated by a tiny proportion of the population of England,far too small a sample to be drawing conclusions about the national pysche. 62% of people voted leave Blaenau Gwent and who could forget the Mayhill riots in Swansea? Rather than sitting on our high horses and pointing the finger at the English we need to recognise that many of… Read more »

Dameisen
Dameisen
3 months ago

“the same 2018 YouGov survey, 80% of the residents of England identified strongly as English, but 82% also strongly identified as British, pointing to how “British and English identities are intertwined”.” What a terribly bigoted post that has manipulated some shoddy statistics for an anti English agenda. Another way to interpret the data is that a lot of English are proud to be part of Scotland and Wales and feel like we are all one big family. Yes I was born in England so I’m stuck with being labelled English but I always put British on any form. (As I… Read more »

Annibendod
Annibendod
3 months ago
Reply to  Dameisen

Personally I find the attitude that pushes British nationalism over Welsh nationhood to be bigotry. Lord knows I’ve had enough English folk try to lecture me on the pointlessness of my language and culture. Oh, you might want to check the stats on the percentage living in Wales who wern’t born here but we tend to get along which doesn’t fit the stereotype you just egested. And shall we just extend your argument a little? We all live on one rock so we should all just be governed by China and speak Mandarin shouldn’t we? Or does that sound ludicrous… Read more »

Frank Sterle Jr.
Frank Sterle Jr.
3 months ago

Parents should really do their kids a big favor by NOT passing down onto them destructive anti-social/-societal sentiments and perceptions (including stereotypes and ‘humor’), since such rearing ironically can make life so much harder for one’s own children. . It fails to prepare children for the practical reality of an increasingly diverse and populous society and workplace. It also makes it so much less likely those children will be emotionally content or preferably harmonious with their multicultural and multi-ethnic/-racial surroundings. . Children reared into their adolescence and, eventually, young adulthood this way can often be angry yet not fully realize… Read more »

Daf
Daf
3 months ago

I think a basic point being overlooked is that a lot of people in Wales, and Scotland, want nothing to do with groups of people waving England flags or Union flags. They won’t align with ‘the old enemy’. Ask the average punter on the street if they know Wales is a ‘Nation of Sanctuary’, or what that means, and you’ll get blank looks. Show them a photo of shirtless red faced angry men waving England flags, and ask them if they support them, and you’ll likely get a firm ‘no’. But In other areas where the optics are less off… Read more »

Adrian
Adrian
3 months ago

Before we get too smug, can we please remember that the lunatic who murdered three little girls in Southport, injured many others, and effectively sparked the riots off, was Welsh?

Last edited 3 months ago by Adrian
CapM
CapM
3 months ago
Reply to  Adrian

Some are still incapable of not abusing those tragic murders to further their own agendas.

Adrian
Adrian
3 months ago
Reply to  CapM

As a one-off note – until such time as you can muster a civil or intelligent response I’d suggest you don’t waste the key strokes.

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