Jeremy Vine compares talk show’s independence debate to ‘fight in a pub’

Stephen Price

A heated debate about Welsh independence took place on Jeremy Vine’s Channel 5 talk show yesterday, with a Labour MP telling Plaid Cymru’s Carrie Harper that Wales should “get what you’ve got right and don’t worry about getting more”.

In a segment which followed the historic meeting of the leaders of Plaid Cymru, the SNP and Sinn Féin in which they signed a new agreement pledging to work together on independence and called on the UK Government to prepare for constitutional change.

The show featured Labour Member of Parliament for Neath and Swansea East Carolyn Harris and Plaid Cymru Member of the Senedd for Fflint Wrecsam Carrie Harper clashing over Welsh independence and whether Plaid Cymru are reneging on what they presented to voters at the election.

Vine shared: “On the other side of the fence in Wales are Plaid Cymru, who are the Welsh nationalists who, I was going to say want independence, but I’m never quite sure.

“Carrie Harper from Plaid Cymru, you can tell me, you don’t seem to mention wanting independence very much.”

Following a “Bore da from Cardiff”, the Plaid MS said: “I think it’s very clear that Plaid Cymru believe in independence for Wales. It’s also fair to say that we’re at a different stage in our conversation than Scotland are and Northern Ireland are.

“But that principle towards constitutional change, that momentum is absolutely there. We saw that in May’s election, didn’t we? We see that in polling data in Wales.”

Interrupting, Carolyn Harris MP said: “Carrie, can I just say, you spent a lot of time during the election telling people that you were not going to be standing on a platform for independence.

“And now as soon as you get in, that was a very clear message that you were not going to talk independence.”

Harper replied: “You read the manifesto, it’s very clear in what it says.

But what we’re advocating for is that we need that constitutional change, particularly in Wales at the moment, whether it’s fairer funding, whether it’s more powers, including borrowing powers, things like that, so we can invest in the services of people.”

“Maybe you should pay attention to what the people of Wales are saying..”

Carolyn Harris and @CarrieAHarper clash over Welsh independence and whether Plaid Cymru are reneging on what they presented to voters at the election.@TheMrLoophole | @theJeremyVine | #JeremyVine pic.twitter.com/74TqdHB5TZ

— Jeremy Vine & Daytime on 5 (@JeremyVineOn5) September 14, 2026

Vine’s co-host asked: “Can I just ask you a question? I don’t know the answer. Was this on your manifesto that if you are in power, you are going to put forward plans for independence? Was that on your manifesto?

Harper replied: “The manifesto was very clear and said there wouldn’t be proposals for a referendum and independence in this current term.

“But we’re also clear that Plaid Cymru believe that decisions about Wales should be made by the people of Wales – that’s a core value for the party obviously”

Carolyn Harris MP added: “But the people of Wales voted on your manifesto where it said you were not calling for a referendum for Wales. So why now X months after you get into office are you calling for a said referendum?

“I mean, try doing what you actually have got power on.”

Harper responded: “We’re talking about the principle of the power to hold a referendum. We’re at a different stage in our conversation in Wales than Scotland is or Northern Ireland is, as we explained.

“But the principle that the decision about our future here in Wales should be made by us, not by someone else somewhere else, I think is a fundamental democratic principle. It’s one we should be talking about.”

Vine said: “When you were campaigning last, Carrie, you were calling for Westminster to pay more money to Wales, correct?

Harper replied: “We were talking about fair funding.”

With Vine adding: “Yeah, but that’s the opposite of independence. That’s the opposite of independence.”

Harper: “Whilst we’re in this union, I think it’s important that we get a fair share and we have a fair deal. We’re not getting that on rail, or on powers.”

The Labour MP then said: “You’ve recently had the highest settlement from the UK government that Wales has ever had, and yet you’re still not able to deliver on the services that you have got control of.

“So I would suggest get what you’ve got right and don’t worry about getting more. Or devolve it to normal authorities.”

Harper asked: “Do you have a problem with Scotland? All right, OK, pause.

“Do you support us having parity of power in Scotland? Your party was kicked out of power in May. There’s a reason for that. And maybe you should be paying attention to what the people of Wales are saying.”

With the Labour MP adding: “You told the electorate you wouldn’t call for a referendum.”

Carrie, Carrie, Carrie. Hang on. Sorry, Nick, forgive me. I just want to just change focus. Carrie, stay there if you don’t mind.

“This is like we’ve walked into a fight in a pub. Nick and I were just standing around trying to just enjoy our lagers.”

“Disingenuous”

Following the debate, Dan Lawrence wrote on X: “Very disingenuous from Carolyn Harris here. Plaid is not holding a referendum or calling for a referendum as is clear to most. They are doing exactly what they said they would on page 14 of the manifesto and during the election campaign.”

He then went on to share a screenshot from their manifesto which reads: We know that the way the UK is currently structured and governed is unsustainable. Change is both necessary and likely, and a responsible government must prepare for it. Our nation is on a journey to independence, and we will work in partnership with the people of Wales to set out what the next steps on that journey can look like. We will establish a new National Commission for Wales, responsible for:

• Bringing forward and overseeing processes for devolving the Crown Estate, rail services and infrastructure, and justice and policing – all as recommended by the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales.

• Engaging citizens in an ongoing national conversation about the options for Wales’s constitutional future – building on the best practice established by the Constitutional Commission in connecting constitutional change to the issues that people care
about and affect them in their daily lives.

• Researching key political and economic questions relevant to Wales’s constitutional future, to inform debate and decision-making.

• Laying the foundations for a future White Paper on Welsh independence – addressing the challenges and setting out the opportunities and positive changes independence would bring for Wales. We fundamentally believe that the decision on Wales’s political and constitutional future belongs to the people of Wales. We will therefore formally request that the right to decide on the timeline, question and process for an independence referendum be devolved.

‘Turning point’

Plaid Cymru, the SNP and Sinn Féin’ memorandum of understanding was unveiled as the parties’ leaders met in Cardiff on Monday, with cooperation promised on areas including renewable energy, the economy and relations with Europe.

The agreement says Wales, Scotland and Ireland each have the right to determine their own future through democratic means and argues that the political landscape across the UK and Ireland is changing.

It states: “Momentum is behind our movements; we believe that constitutional change is coming.”

The parties have committed to sharing ideas on building what they describe as stronger and fairer economies, expanding renewable energy and rebuilding relationships with Europe.

They also state that they believe the future of their nations lies in the European Union and insist that Westminster should not be able to block votes on their constitutional futures.

The agreement acknowledges that the three parties have different constitutional positions and that each nation would determine its future “in its own way and in its own time”.

It calls on the UK Government to “prepare for, plan and facilitate constitutional change in each jurisdiction”.

Mr ap Iorwerth was joined in Cardiff by Scottish First Minister and SNP leader John Swinney, Northern Ireland First Minister and Sinn Féin vice-president Michelle O’Neill and Sinn Féin president Mary Lou McDonald.

They were meeting in their capacities as party leaders rather than representatives of their respective governments.

Mr ap Iorwerth said May’s Senedd election had been a “turning point for Wales”.

He said: “Across these islands, we are seeing a new political landscape emerge, with a growing recognition that the Westminster model is no longer working.

“Our parties have much to gain from working together, as partners and as equals, where we share common interests and where co-operation can improve the lives of the people we represent.”

The Cardiff talks come amid renewed debate over independence referendums after Prime Minister Andy Burnham suggested another Scottish vote could take place if there was a “clear consensus” for one.

However, a subsequent letter to Mr Swinney said a referendum remained “off limits”.

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