Should Wales have a second national anthem in English?
Martin Shipton
A retired college vice principal has mooted the possibility of Wales having a second national anthem in English.
In a statement sent to Nation.Cymru, Brenig Davies argues that such a development could assist in the development of Wales as a bilingual country.
‘Chatter’
Mr Davies, who was the vice principal of Pontypridd College, said: “There is increasing chatter about whether Wales should have a second anthem in the English language in recognition of the fact that Wales is a bilingual nation – well at least for 18% of the population.
“Although school environments are increasingly focussing on Welsh language education as part of the Cymraeg 2050 initiative, it can only be guessed what percentage of Welsh speakers know the words of Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau, sung with emotional gusto, at the Principality Stadium on a rugby international day.
“And how many in the stands know that our anthem is actually unofficial, with the official anthem being God Save The King? Though It should never be suggested that our unofficial anthem should be replaced and not sung at national sporting events. Perish the thought.
“Ireland’s Call and Flower of Scotland are unofficial anthems in their respective countries. Ireland’s official national anthem is Amhrán na bh Fiann – in English, The Soldier’s Song.
“A new Wales with our existing anthem and a recognised unofficial anthem may seem a distant dream. However, it may be closer should Wales become Independent.
“There is, however, just one little problem: we are a part of the United Kingdom. But that’s no reason why I should not contribute to a public debate about the possibility of two Welsh Anthems – one official and one unofficial.
“In Scotland there are political rumblings that the lyrics referring to 14th Century ‘brutal division and hate’ should be removed from the country’s unofficial national anthem – a public debate of a different magnitude.
“Pertinent too, though with different historical, linguistic, social, cultural and political contexts, post-apartheid South Africa settled on an anthem that combines five historic languages reflecting the new South Africa as the country looked forward to harmony, with economic prosperity.
“Of course, Wales is not a new country. However, it does have a new bilingual Parliament. And, in a similar way to South Africa, there are in Wales historical linguistic and cultural differences, which for some are experienced as negative schisms, frustrating greater social harmony amongst Welsh peoples. But South Africa today is clearly not a model for Wales.
“Nevertheless, the aspirations embodied in our anthem should not be ignored. National anthems are meant to invoke pride and love of one’s country. An anthem is symbolic of a nation’s spirit, embracing prevailing tolerance of a confident nation state.
“Maybe in the future, a quasi-official anthem, rather like the one in Ireland, will emerge written by a Welsh composer, being respectful of both our two languages, while – and this is critically important – establishing Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau as the official anthem in a new Cymru. Finally, my remarks are not a case for Independence per se: for me that is another matter.”
Dyfodol I’r Iaith
Heini Gruffudd has been one of the most prominent campaigners for the Welsh language for many years. A teacher and author, he is a director of the pressure group Dyfodol I’r Iaith (The Future of the Language).
He disagrees with Mr Davies over the need for an English anthem, saying: “I don’t think that’s a good idea at all. More and more people are learning the words of Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau to sing them at rugby and football matches, and they’re also singing Dafydd Iwan’s Yma o Hyd. That’s great for the Welsh language and more and more people are identifying with it.”
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Editor: You’ll see from the remarks below why I’m asking if my comments can be placed as the first comment on the thread and remain there. ———————————- Thank you all for your comments. I take each one seriously and hope that a meeting can be arranged, with a few self-selecting representatives, to continue the debate. This will help my wish to “… contribute to a public debate about the possibility of two Welsh Anthems – one official and one unofficial.” (Taken from my piece) Obviously I can’t give out my contact details. The best I can think of is, those… Read more »
Oh dear, never mind.
Thank you
Nothing is “official” because there’s no written constitution. There’s only convention.
Thank you for the helpful constitutional jolt, John.
NO ENGLISH language ANTHEM FOR CYMRU.
Thank you for your comment, David, to which I agree. Brenig
Absolutely no need for this. Most people who aren’t fluent in Welsh and want to sing the anthem know the words by heart anyway, even if they don’t speak much more Welsh than that. In that way Hen Wlad fy Nhadau unites us all.
Thank you, John. I agree with you. Brenig
It is August the 1st not April the 1st yes?
First day of Silly Season
Best day of the year, Paddy.. I’m pleased we agree.
Thanks for telling me, my iPhone calendar is down.
No thank you. For some people the only time they’ll speak Welsh is the national anthem, for some people it feels more special because it’s the time we’re all speaking Welsh when perhaps it’s usually, sadly, a minority. We’ve seen “also known as Snowdonia” in BBC articles but how many people are learning/using the Welsh? It’s slow progress. How many times is it referred to as “land of my father’s” in English speaking media even though that isn’t right? It would be a ginormous step back for us as a country to have an English language national anthem. Is Mr… Read more »
This is an interesting reply, George, until you come to the final three sentences, where you blow it. Brenig
No. English has already taken over in so much of our country. Bilingualism doesn’t mean “translate everything into English so that people don’t have to engage with the Welsh language”. Why should we always be the ones to make concessions?
We are Welsh, not English. Our national anthem should be in our national language.
The No, I respect absolutely. And I fully agree with the drift of your reply, Barry.
I did read once there are some nonsense English lyrics to Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau that sound approximately correct phonetically
Interesting, though I’m not aware of it. If you find it then please place it here.
Red nose , make-up , silly wig and hat..all waiting for the person who thought an English anthem is necessary.
Firstly, where did I say, “… an English anthem is necessary” ?Re the clown makeup, it would be great to see you. Best wishes, Brenig
As mentioned elsewhere I did have to check it’s the 1st of August, NOT the 1st of April! We get footballers from England who arrive from England on Thursday, learn the anthem after training on Friday and are expected to sing it full volume before playing for Wales on the Saturday. If even they acknowledge this then the most extreme of the Welsh Not Brigade have to accept the inevitable. As we’re an indigenous nation on this island and the England are not, maybe they should drop their English language anthem as the Dutch Afrikaner immigrants had to do in… Read more »
Interesting that you mentioned the post-apartheid Anthem and that the Dutch Afrikaner had to give up their anthem. However, the new anthem blends two songs, with each stanza sung in a different language; two of which are Afrikaans and English. I mentioned it as an example of a multi-language anthem. And of great importance, in our case, went on to say that, “South Africa today is clearly not a model for Wales.” However, there might be lessons we may learn from.
I hope you find this interesting. Brenig
If this happens, I commit to set myself on fire in front of the portrait of King Charles in Cardiff City Hall.
Oh, please don’t do that. Come to the meeting I’m trying to arrange, where you can have your say. It’s the healthy option, Ben. Brenig
BETH???? Yn hollol ddim. WHAT???? Absolutely not. Perish the thought!! How dare this man to even mention it.
Good to meet you, Frank. I’m impressed with your commitment to free speech
What a fool. To admit that he’s the VP of Ponty College and to suggest this. Over-promoted obviously. Bachan diawl, twp neu be’?
I’ve always been taken to kind persons.
Terrible idea. One of the (many) reasons why Hen Wlad Fy’n Nhadau is so good is because it’s uniquely Welsh. It’s our own language, our own culture and it’s beautiful. It would be a very sad day and no less than a disgrace if we were to ever do such a thing and to erode the importance of our own language and culture on the world stage.
Thank you for your comments, of which I fully agree. Our Welsh anthem is precious and as you say, ‘It’s our own language, our own culture and it’s beautiful’.
Throughout it was never my intention to say otherwise.
Interesting observation from down under. Not that long ago the Australian anthem had one line changed from We are young and free to We are One and free out of respect for The Aboriginal People and quite rightly so.
My son and family live in Brisbane, so this is specially of interest for me, Johnny.
I’ve just checked it out on BBC online, and as you say;
The line to be removed in the anthem, which is called Advance Australia Fair, is “For we are young and free”. Instead people will sing “For we are one and free.”
So thank you so much for this information. Brenig
In a nutshell NO
Thanks for replying, Dai, and I respect your NO,
Oh behave there’s some really important issues that need discussing without this rubbish
Steady on! You might be on your own with “rubbish”, if close on 100 replies is an indicator of deep concern in my piece.
Is this a joke? Why not just bring back god save the English crown
I’m with you all the way on this. Please keep me posted, Stefan.
It is telling that all these celebrants of bilingualism advocate removing Welsh to represent bilingualism. While they are perfectly happy for Britain to have an English anthem despite Britain having multiple languages: Cornish, English, Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic, Ulster Scots, Welsh.
Thank you, Paul
With due respect to Brenig Davies. It’s a big. No.
I respect your comment completely. So thanks for replying. Brenig
No certainty not, we should be teaching and encouraging people to learn Welsh not giving up on our beautiful language
I fully agree. Our five grandchildren, living in south Wales had all their education in Welsh medium schools. Our two grandchildren living in Brisbane were also schooled through the medium of Welsh before returning.
This is a completely idiotic idea. Many non-Welsh speakers are very proud of Hen Wlad fy Nhadau. Anglicisation has already gone too far without adding the National Anthem to its list of conquests.
Thank you for replying. I’m at one with you on your remarks. It has been my intention throughout to add to the debate through listening and writing. Brenig
Who exactly is bringing up this “chatter” and from where? Besides from the most fringe and fervent anti-Welsh Unionists… What I have noticed is a trend to use the bilingual status of Wales, originally intended to preserve and promote Welsh – our culture and our identity, as a means to side-line it for the path of least resistance i.e. anglicised. The nefariousness of it is that it doesn’t come from just one socio-political side one might expect, right-wing english/british nationalism – but also the centrist/neo-liberal minded urbanites that see Welshness as a fiscal and political block to their anglo ‘British’… Read more »
I note your comments, so thank you. I’m relieved to say that none of your opinions apply to me. Brenig
No!
I respect your view, Charles.
No
Thank you, Robert, for replying and I respect your opinion.
I’m not exactly a fan of this proposal, but I can see that there might be some argument in support of it; but if it were to be implemented I believe it would absolutely need to be a translation into English of the same words and sung to the same tune.
Anything else would be not merely pointless, but, I think, divisive too.
how would ‘O bydded i’r hen iaith barhau’ be translated into English?
It’d take someone with way more poetic genius than I possess to come up with that, but I’m pretty sure that someone could. You only have to think of the number of Welsh language hymns which have been rendered into English, and, indeed, the number of English and other European hymns which someone has succeeded in translating into decent and sonorous Welsh.
I’m grateful for your remarks. It informs the discussion, which I hope will continue. Brenig
Thank you, Robin. Dai made a similar comment, towards the end of this thread. I replied, “This is powerful”
“May the old language endure” or “O may the old language prevail.”
Brenig
Thank you
Thank you, John, for your most interesting contribution to the issues raised in my piece. Brenig
Thank you for replying, John. Your remarks are interesting and pleasantly provocative to the debate.
The reply made by Jeffrey Pride in this thread is much like yours. Brenig
There’s a faint whiff of Johnson’s Muscular Unionism Unit behind this story.
You’ve got me on this one!
I have two suggestions to head off this stupid, insulting, damaging and divisive proposal which amounts to an attack on our country and its’ language. Proposal one: Stand for the tune, lips closed, as if it is an instrumental only version (no lyrics) like the Spanish anthem. Proposal two: Leaving out the clear disdain in the eyes, do the John Redwood version which went ‘Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah’ and just relax while the rest of us do it all for you.
My piece is written to add to a debate on anthems. It was in anticipating the wide range of replies, most of which are serious, that I was carful not to use ‘proposal’. This would have closed the debate too early.
I’m respectful of the comments, so thank you for contributing to the debate, a debate I would wish to be a part of, as I mention in the piece.
I have copied the end of the penultimate sentence of my piece so there can be no doubt of my view that Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau is the official, and the only official anthem of Wales: … “and this is critically important – establishing Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau as the official anthem in a new Cymru…”
But you wrote: “the official anthem being God Save The King”
And now you say: “there can be no doubt of my view that Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau is the official, and the only official anthem of Wales”
Bloody ridiculous.
Yes, if you say so.
Please accept my apologies: you are right, my error, and a misleading one with the debate continuing. Brenig
I’ve just remembered that a reply from Baxter, above, referred to this issue. Second comment above, though the list order changes. Brenig
o bydded i’r hen iaith barhau
Diolch, Dai. It is very powerful, Brenig
This is a spoof – has to be. Our anthem symbolises our dedication to our country, language and culture. The English anthem is to whoever happens to be on the throne at any given time. Does this not emphasize the cultural difference between Cymru and Lloegr? That’s why we need to keep Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau.
This is an interesting reply. So thanks for your comments. Your remarks on anthems “…symbolises…” are those I share with you, and are included in my piece. And I take much of your explanation on “…Cymru and Lloeg…”. Here I’ve lifted online text we both would find helpful to the debate on anthems in the UK. I mention debate to emphasise my reason for writing my piece. I come to no conclusions. The high number of replies is helping greatly to inform my understand of anthems. .”..God Save the King isn’t the only national anthem that is relevant throughout the… Read more »
I don’t know what, who or where you’ve got your ear but I’ve never heard a mention of an anthem in Saesneg for Cymru. The best rendition of our anthem is at the football, Cardiff City Stadium along with Yma o Hyd a Calon Lan. No Saesneg wanted or needed. Pick a better way to “assist in the development of Wales as a bilingual country” please. Including more Saesneg into our culture is not the way. But, thanks for your reply.
I’m pleased you’ve continued with our discussion. The same examples and opinion is made by Heini Gruffudd, in Martin Shipton’s introduction to my piece.
Thank you again. Brenig
Hi Brenig,
Could I enquire please, are you related to John Redwood (former Secretary of Stata for Wales)?
There is room for another sensible reply to an open debate if you wish, Stevie. You won’t find one conclusion in my piece. I do say, though, I’d like to be involved with a public debate the anthem issue.
Why don’t you take up my information that you can do a
second reply?
I hope you do it, then I’ll tell you if I’m related to uncle John Redwood.
Or even Sir Tom Jones who couldn’t get most of the words right when he sang in Las Vegas before the Calzaghe v Hopkins fight.
Interesting. I’m of an age to recall when I first met Tom Jones at a Merthyr dance hall. I expect you know he used his real name back then, Thomas (or Tommy) Woodward. Brenig
NO, NO, NO
go on YouTube, people from around the world listen to our anthem when sung at the football and rugby matches. They love the fact that its sung in Welsh.
they also love our flag.
I’ve not said anything different. I fully support and respect your view. It’s because there are a range of views on this subject that I was careful not to make recommendations or conclusions..Thanks for replying. Brenig
Is it “unofficial” until some prat in London deems it to be “official”? I’ll tug my forelock now, sire.
The second comment under Baxter, above also comments on this. The list order changes occasionally. Brenig
I am not a Welsh speaker, but I honestly think there is no need for a second anthem. Go to a football or rugby match in Cardiff on international days you can literally feel the emotion among the stadium when the anthem is belted out. Most of them are probably not Welsh speakers. In fact sports fans from around the world are quite envious of our anthem. Whilst, I’m not trying to change the subject, but if there is going to be a debate regarding national anthems, then it should be in England. Since God Save the King is supposed… Read more »