Wales and Scotland not nations and independence should be made ‘impossible’ says Lord Frost
Wales and Scotland aren’t nations, the UK should become a “unitary state” with devolution “evolved back”, and independence should be made “impossible”, an influential Tory peer has said.
Writing in the Telegraph, former Brexit minister Lord Frost said that the devolved governments were “subordinate” to Westminster and that the UK Government needed to change how it discussed them.
He that a referendum on independence should “simply be impossible”, with a bar of 75 per cent of seats in the devolved parliament being in favour of independence, over an entire decade.
He said that letting part of the UK go would be a “massive national humiliation” and “morally wrong”.
“The new government can start by changing its language,” he said. “Somehow we have all drifted into speaking as if this country were already a confederation made up of four ‘nations’ that have chosen to work together (but could equally choose differently). When we think like that, we end up having to constantly justify the existence of our country, on a purely transactional basis.
“But the UK is a unitary state, not a federation or a confederation. Both the 1707 and 1801 Acts of Union fused the participants into one state in which all were equal, first ‘Great Britain’, then the ‘United Kingdom’, with one sovereign legal personality and one Parliament and government.
“For all the noise, that is still the case.” He added: “Moreover, if you are a citizen of that unitary state, you are British.”
‘Abandoned’
He added that the UK Government needed “to act” to stop devolved “mission creep”.
“The devolved administrations do not have powers in foreign relations or immigration – they are ‘reserved matters’,” he said.
“If the UK government does not police these boundaries, soon they will no longer exist.
“Meanwhile, I urge people in England not to give in to the ‘let them go’ argument. Partly because the break-up of the country would be a massive national humiliation. In Europe and beyond, it would be seen as a comeuppance which they would exploit to the full.
“But, more importantly, because it is morally wrong. Supporters of the Union in Scotland, people who have built their lives and families on the assumption of its permanence, should not be abandoned. The UK is everyone’s country and we must protect and support it.”
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So you insult Wales and Scotland by saying we are not NATIONS well sunshine we do not call our selves English or British i consider myself WELSH AND EUROPEAN WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO CALL THIS IGNORANT PRATT YOU WOULD NOT PRINT
“Wales and Scotland not nations”….keep it up Frost 👏…this is music to the ears of Welsh and Scottish indy supporters ☺️. It’s precisely that kind of contempt for our nationhood from rabid ‘John Bull’ English nats like Frost which has in no small part spurred the growth in support for indy in our two NATIONS of Wales and Scotland
Cymraes ydw i! Rydw i’n perthyn i genedl oedd yma cyn y Saeson a hoffwn fod yn Ewropead, nid yn Brydeinwraig!
I am Welsh and belong to the Celts who were here long before the Anglo saxons! I would rather be European, not British!
People like Lord Frost belongs to the old Empire mentality not to the twenty first century. This conservative government has more in common with Putin and China than with modern European leaders.
Seriously….this kind of attack does actually help.
It’s forgotten that after the north of England rejected a regional assembly, research showed that there was too little emphasis on the cultural strengths that underpin the north’s differences and too much emphasis on the economic argument.
There is no question that we have to address the economic issues, but the more our nation is insulted, the more the cause of independence will grow, economic arguments or not.
Please keep up the good work Lord Frost!
Factually we are nations. This guy’s lack of understanding of the meaning of words does not change that. Also, thanks for going fully mask off with this quote; “Meanwhile, I urge people in England not to give in to the ‘let them go’ argument. Partly because the break-up of the country would be a massive national humiliation. In Europe and beyond, it would be seen as a comeuppance which they would exploit to the full.” We are colonies, occupied territories, and the last remnants of England’s empire and ego. That mindset underpins everything in this rotten “union”. And we deserve… Read more »
Well, I have been saying this for years. The optics of “England” are not the same as “U.K.” We are living at a turning point in history, where fictions are being exposed.
A smart Welsh Gov. could navigate us to calmer waters.
Frost is appealing to history which includes, massively, the history of conquest. Ultimately they can only govern by consent in the present. That is steadily being eroded by incompetence, arrogance and greed and by overstating the significance of the 2016 referendum which had merely advisory status and produced such a marginal result that it ought never to have been acted upon.
Man is a Grade A tosser. Yet another bonkers Tory out for his periodic howl at the moon. Once upon a time even the Tory party could muster a few bright sensible balanced types. Now I see no evidence that any survive. At this rate Redwood will be on the reserved moderate wing of that party !
The act of annexation was and still is morally illegal. Frost is the type of recruitment mouthpiece we love.
Well, he just gave the true reason why they oppose us being able to decide for ourselves how we should be ruled. Not economics, not better off together, or any if that crap, but it would be a ” national humiliation “,and the English establishment cannot face the thought of it, their pride taking a hit comes before our rights. What an obnoxious excuse for a human, when he would deny us our rights just so he and his ilk can be seen not feeling embarrassed.
Cymru voted for brexit largely due to English immigrants who have never contributed towards our wealth but are quite content to use our public services.
Totally irrelevant. The fact is that English nationalism has a majority in Wales, no matter from whom it comes.
Do you really think that Brexit is compatible with Welsh independence?
Sounds about right to me…it may not have thought that was what it was doing. Until we are given the evidence let us not just blame English refugees for the result entirely. The lack of explanation to the wider public by Welsh politicians of just how much we owed to the EU hand on England’s weather helm against us now stares us full in the face…
Let’s state some facts:
David George Hamilton Frost:
.. and he has the affrontery to take away my nationality!
Duw a’n gwaredo rhag y moch Gadara hyn.
Mr Frost denigrates the primacy of my Welsh identity, having also denied me my European citizenship. Plague on the man, and his ilk.
Go on Frosty boy! Keep winding everyone up and the membership of Yes Cymru will be 2 million before you know it. By the way, never mind Wales and Scotland. You need to get on with telling England that IT is not a nation either. It can’t be under your perverse agenda.
P.S. Frost says ‘not nations’. Does this mean ‘The Six Nations’ Rugby tournament will have to be renamed ‘The Three Nations plus three other places’? Should we inform FIFA that their 32 nation World Cup Finals tournament later this year is actually 30 nations and two pretend nations? When those two pretend nations play each other, he’ll find the people supporting them are Welsh and English. Come back in November Frosty and try telling those people THEN that they have no nation.
Your 100% correct.If were not a nation then neither is England.Which poses the question of which people is he asking not to get involved in the “let them go” argument. Strange thing to say.
Yes it is. Very strange.
Perhaps the EU should have had a similar law preventing countries from leaving. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have wanted that. Frost (he’s no lord) already knows first hand about being humiliated. He himself completely botched up the EU/Brexit negotiations, having no clue, then resigned. Idiot… Expletives withheld.
The word your looking for is fu@@wit
Yet, if you told “Lord” Frost that England wasn’t a nation, the veins would be popping out of his gammon neck.
why has my comment been deleted?
it’s time to stop pussy footing around with these colonialists, and I repeat he’s got his history wrong Wales was annexed
I am reminded yet again of the warning ⚠️ shared with me many years back when I was working in the Leinster House in Dublin. Indeed a warning Jack Frost 🥶 the unelected and well remunerated Unionist Tory Peer. I shared a coffee with an old and retired Senator who had first been elected as a very young man as part of the old Irish ☘️ Home Rule party founded. by Parnell and co to secure ‘ “ domain status within the empire “ for a united Ireland 🇮🇪- very much the Devo Max folk of the post First World… Read more »
When will these people ever learn? Honestly, they say they want to preserve the Union and yet their every action is leading to it’s demise. I’m not complaining, I’m just flabbergasted they can’t see it! 😆😆
Persistent peaceful insistence is usually more effective than violence – see Gandhi.
Cymru is hamstrung by having Communication (radio, tv, press etc.) refused devolvement to the Senedd.
We need 2 million more members of YESCymru/AUOB etc.
Well, Yes Cymru need a You Tube channel? Or Rumble or whatever………….
Putler and Frosty separated at birth?
As a natural conservative and person born to Welsh parents, but myself delivered and raised in England before moving back to Wales to live in my mid thirties, I increasingly find the attitude of many ‘English’ and the members and supporters of the current Government totally unhelpful, even downright rude when it comes to the devolved nations. In his own comments he talks about a ‘Union of equals’ yet sadly, as far as the English have been concerned this has never been the case. Indeed his own comments about the devolved administrations being ‘subordinate’ to the Westminster Government clearly illustrate… Read more »
Eloquently put, Mr McNamee. However, for ‘the constitutional shake-up’ of the UK to happen, it would require enough Westminster MP’s who represent English constituencies, to actively support the aforesaid shake-up. Having studied, lived and worked in England (although I now live in my native Wales once again) for some 10 years, I’m very familiar with England and how it perceives its place in the current form of the UK and I don’t believe that a constitutional shake-up of the four constituent nations’ relationship to one another, is even on its radar at present. It would not surprise me that in… Read more »
Frost doesn’t get to decide what is my nationality, Cymru am byth 🏴
Bring back the MAC
*English humiliation*
Just to cheer you up, I will relate a true story. I had in my past career to teach a Chinese mainland student 1:1 for a year so we got to know each other rasonably well. She was intelligent, respectful, did all the reading asked of her, submitted excellent work on time, etc. – a model student. In conversation it emerged that her family were close to the Chinese Communist Party hierarchy. It also emerged that the Communiist party was still unhappy about the humiliation heaped upon the Country by the British in the two Opium Wars. (China wanted to… Read more »
100 years of humiliation? Not to worry, India, and many others, also in the queue.
Sooner the better
Do we have to read what this rabid Tory nutter thinks of us? Don’t buy The Torygraph, the most expensive toilet paper in the galaxy!
This is basically the definition of the phrase “saying the quiet part out loud” with respect to Unionism.
Prepare for humiliation you arse.
“Moreover, if you are a citizen of that unitary state, you are British.”
I wonder what punishment LORD Frost has in mind for people who dare to consider themselves Scots or Welsh? Re-education camps?
By the same logic then neither is England.
Hohohoho heeheeheehee hahahahaha oh my ears and whiskers. What a plonker.
So according Lord Frost “the UK is a unitary state…both the 1707 and 1801 Acts of Union fused the participants into one state…with one sovereign legal personality and one Parliament and government.” Then that’s it the citizens of Wales and Scotland in the 21st century should have no democratic outlet to change how they are governed because of what undemocratic Parliaments hundreds of year ago decided.
Hope all you Brexiteers in Wales are listening to what Brexit bigot Frost is saying? Apparently you don’t exist. The very same Conservative cretin falsely parrotted how the EU stole “Britain’s” power & soverignty the reason to vote for Brexit , now not only denies Welsh & Scottish nationhood. but says that England owns our soverignty, and wants to remove our democratically elected parliaments by force bringing us back under English Whitehall rule.
#YesCymru 🏴 ✊ #Ymlaen 🏴✊#ConservativesAreFacists 🇬🇧☣️
Humiliating? To whom precisely?
Is England a nation? Presumably not. Importantly, England does not have its own Senedd. Therfore, Westminster must be England’s gov, as well as the UK’s
. Therfore by definition, We are subordinate to England. Keep it up Frost-Joke, you’re doing as well as your Brexit negotiations, and where did they get us? This attitude of ignorance belongs to the period prior to the abolition of slavery.
Your comment is unacceptable and smacks of ISIS
I think Saislayer was throwing Frost’s words back in his face. It’s called ‘irony’ or something similar.
Westminster and the UK Government have “devolved” some of their powers to the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments, NI Assembly and their governments so, technically, they are “subordinate”. The devolved powers can be overridden or taken back. Indeed, they are doing that with the Shared Prosperity Fund, administered by Whitehall, that’s replaced the (larger) European Development Fund which was granted to and administered by the devolved governments. But why do we have devolution? It’s because, over the centuries, the UK parliament and Government and the British state have failed or neglected to differentiate themselves from being a parliament and government for… Read more »
I hope if in the future there were negotiations on the final treaty of independence that the tories put him in charge of it all. After all he did a sterling job of the Northern Ireland protocols with the EU didn’t he
So, Mr Frost, you and your party believe that Wales and Scotland are not nations. That is exactly what your friend Mr Putin thinks about the Ukraine. I presume that making this statement means that you Mr Frost agree with Mr Putin. (That is the logic). When the Ukraine wanted to make new alliances Mr Putin’s army invaded. Early 20th century history between UK and Ireland wasn’t that nice for the people of Ireland. Mr Frost, you and your regime are sounding more and more like the PUTIN regime everyday. Regimes such as the UK, Hitler’s empire, and the USSR… Read more »
Surely, if Frost doesn’t recognise Wales and Scotland then it follows he shouldn’t refer to his country as England either. By his own argument, he should forever refer to England as Britain, but never England and, as we all know too well, the English
wouldn’t like that would they?!
This is typical of unionist anti democratic Tory government wanting to shift goalposts on voting stating 75% vote in favour of independence when it should be over 50% the Brexit vote springs to mind talk about stacking the odds in favour of unionism these criminals need to go and any future labour government should be held firmly to account ain’t this just typical of little englanders desperately clinging to power
He’s too thick to realise he’s also insulted the people of England by denouncing their nationhood too with his homogenising One Nation Britishness.
He also conflated disdain for the Conservative party with Anglophobia, so, yes, thick as pig plop again.
The piece is written in the dire and foreboding language of occupation. Let’s see how the heavy hand wins people over, it worked in Ireland didn’t it, numb nuts?
Given this man’s ‘back catalogue’ of stupidity, especially regarding ‘Brexit’, his opinions need to be keenly ignored!
“Moreover, if you are a citizen of that unitary state, you are British.”
Go and get in the sea you Tory cretin. I am Welsh, not British.
These people want to eradicate Scottish, Welsh and Irish identity. They are Anglo-supremacists, and believe England has a god given right to rule the world, just like the old days. Well the English are not the master race and either Scottish and Welsh independance and Irish reunification are addressed legally, peacefully and democratically or they will be addressed using other methods. It is obvious that Frost and the rest of Westminster have doubled down on authoritarian control and suppression of democracy. They have decided they would prefer to fight a long and bloody civil war with Scotland that they think… Read more »