Clive Woodward’s classless comments sums up why it’s so hard for Wales fans to support England
Ifan Morgan Jones
The insistence that Welsh fans support England when they get further at a Football or Rugby World Cup has always struck me as an odd one.
Wales and England are rivals in sport. Geographic proximity in sport doesn’t mean support like each other – quite the opposite in fact.
No one would expect Manchester City to support Manchester United, Everton to support Liverpool or Swansea to support Cardiff. When these sides compete against each other, it’s a local rivalry.
However, I have no particular reason to support South Africa going into the Rugby World Cup Final either and felt that England probably deserved the World Cup.
In last week’s win against the All Blacks they had played the best rugby of the competition and no Welsh fan would have had any complaints if they had lifted the Webb Ellis Trophy.
Clive Woodward’s comments at half time, however, had my donning dark green and cheering on the Springboks instead.
“The SA team that played against Wales are a completely different side,” he said at half-time.
Essentially, he was claiming that the South Africa playing England were a step above the one that narrowly beat Wales by a last-minute penalty last week.
I have nothing against the English or English rugby fans, but England’s media pundits are insufferable. No-one can have any complaints that others dislike their team when their pundits are this arrogant.
This was exactly the same South Africa team that played Wales. There are no surprises with South Africa – their tactics were identical.
The only difference was that Pollard missed an early kick against England, while he had a 100% record against Wales.
Despite this, Wales were a missed Rhys Patchell drop-goal away from a final spot last week.
In comparison, England were a bag of nerves in the first half of the Rugby World Cup Final. They dragged themselves into contention in the second half but the South Africa boa constrictor soon squeezed the life out of them, before delivering the coup de grace with two late tries. They were well beaten 12-32.
Clive Woodward’s comments were entirely without merit. Wales, who have beaten England twice this year, played better last week than they did this week.
It’s not just Clive Woodward, however. Yesterday we had Stuart Barnes claim that Wales, Grand Slam champions and World Cup semi-finalists, were not a “top table team”.
If England really wants the support of Welsh rugby fans, perhaps they should ask their pundits to lay off the arrogant condescension.
Otherwise, they can have no complaints when Welsh fans would rather their sporting opponents put them to the sword.
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What’s with taking their medals ungracious bad losers England
I noticed that too, really ignorant.
Many athletes don’t celebrate Silver and Bronze at the Olympics, they see it as a sense of failure or celebrating second best, they’re built and think differently to us, that’s why they’re there and we’re not I guess
But nz wore theirs with pride yesterday
Obviously a England fan iff u lose u come back better not disrespect the reward
Hahahaha you bag of wet rags, shut up!!! They didn’t perform .To grace gold you must win, you came 2nd and must don silver it’s the way the competition works, like spoiled kids!!!
‘they are there and we are not’ largely due to ref decisions make no mistake.
Crap
Sp true! Most welsh people know Wales is a crap hole so they hate other counties for it
Just watching England fans standing and clapping the South African team. We are not poor losers
This is about the arrogant explayer/coaches who make ridiculous comments when blinkered and believe they are always going to win, delusional as always, next they will calling for eddy jones to be sacked just like they do in every sport when England dont meet the hype of the media and pundits
Ur very poor losers England are u dont get it off no other team show respect u get it back thay wanted Springboks give them game I think
And the mainstream English media (e.g. the EBC, for it cannot surely be called the BBC) are also insufferable. The main reason why Welsh people hope that England lose every game they play is to avoid listening to the media go on and on and on and on…. about England! After all, some of my best friends are English.
Their arrogance is outstanding, I don’t want to support them, never will support them and always take great pleasure in their defeat. We played the correct way against The Bok, may not have been the greatest watch but we pushed The Bok harder than England did.
I also take great pleasure in knowing that so called top rugby pundits like Barnes (who hardly knows the names of the players) and Woodward talk just as much s#!te as an airhead like me
Join the discussion…they cannot stand it they hate it…the media is only a smokescreen,,they hate England full stop…
Totally agree well said hope England coach gets the sack he needs to be more professional
Quite right we as a family all complained about it the pundits and what is said here completely rings true England need to eat humble pie
Our family all noticed this so happy faf de clerk said no not really true it has to stop this bias from pundits it’s counter priductuve
Interviewer: “So Faf, did you come into this game with a different game plan from the semi final against Wales?”
Faf de Klerk: “No, not really”
Enough said.
No difference in game plan, just better executed and with more intent. Which is, I guess, what woodwood was getting at. Wales met fire with fire and made SA play a % game, England didn’t and allowed SA to impose their game plan on them thus making them look a more effective and better side than they did against Wales.
I agree with everything , however I did wonder , last week, why SA underused their wings [ so did we incidentally ] and yesterday use them to superb affect, think yesterdays performance by the Boks might well have put a few more points on us too, but my feeling is thank you SA for cancelling what would have been an insufferable English media blitz, even worse than a Welsh one had we won
First of all, I’m Welsh. I think the interpretation of Woodward’s comments are debatable. I’m not sure that he was being perjorative. South Africa are spoilers who stop others players…I suspect he was referring to this. Consider Brian O’Driscoll who said that the New Zealand/ England semi final would provide the winner…dismissing Wales and SA. As an Irish man, no comment and a free pass. If he was English, he would have been described as arrogant! He was wrong, but he is entitled to his opinion. Back to Woodward he emphasised that he wanted Wales to beat the Boks and… Read more »
Surprisingly I though Brian O’Driscoll appeared to be disappointed that South Africa won even though they outplayed England in every aspect of the game from scrumaging to lineouts and were able to score two tries into the bargain. South Africa outplayed England and deserved to win.
He only making sure that he play the game to get more acceptance with the saxon jacks
I noticed that English fans were singing that “chariot” dirge while SA were taking pen kicks. No class unlike the Irish where you could hear a pin drop when their opponents take kicks.
This arrogance is the main reason so many Welsh fans’ will always support England’s opposition…
If it wasn’t for the 24/7 over the next week or month press coverage if England win anything against the usual one day and then forgotten for everyone else – I’d tolerate them winning. As a consequence I’ll be having a glass of South African red wine with a smile on my face later….
Smug arrogant and thought by turning up theyd win …..second prize stuffed by a better team
Can I ask what makes you think the team turned up arrogant and expecting to win? Unless you were in the dressing room, I’m not sure you know what the emotions were. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t take a dig at a team for being confident would you?
English media has the arrogance to think that they have a God-given right to rule or win no matter what. In Scotland & Ireland is support any team but England, they bring it on themselves.
I for one as a Welshman would never support them in any way because of their arrogance but all I’ve seen from the media/pundits etc is fabulous England this, brilliant England that with very little about other home nations and they build the hype around how fantastic the team they are with going back to their old PE teachers as well as getting other English sport stars wishing them well before kick off which leaves a sour taste in the mouth. Well done South Africa as well deserved winners.
Join the discussion…you haven’t seen the Pretoria herald, bloomfontein times, Johannesburg sun, capetown guardian, have you..if u want to see s Africa praised ..READ THEIR PAPERS.. not ones prodced in england
1. South Africa isn’t a “home nation.”
2. One of the guilty parties is the BBC. The BRITISH Broadcasting Company – not the ENGLISH Broadcasting Company.
3. I’m sure the South African papers have focused on South Africa as they aren’t pretending to represent several countries.
It was telling how England were completely opened up by the RSA in the last 20 minutes. England collapsed as the Boks ran in two tries. Where was the English defence? They were noticeably losing the will when they realised they were unable to cope with the tactics employed by the opposition which was precisely the same used in the semis. To suggest that South Africa had miraculously become a better side from their previous game was a ludicrous assertion. A noticeable difference to how Wales keep going to the very last minute. Many congratulations to South Africa who proved… Read more »
Aw, stop moaning at Woodward just cos he’s English, you sound like a big bloody baby. Pundits all over the place got it badly wrong and most of them are one-eyed including Welsh commentators. If you are going to have a moan about the English stick to the political arena where they are really working us over habitually. I really enjoyed that match today as it was proof of how things change in the space of one week. England’s masterly performance against AB’s suggested that they would take the trophy today. Boks beat Wales but seemed to make hard work… Read more »
I find myself in agreement with my namesake. Why do we even care what the English, or anyone else for that matter, say about us? It just shows the inferiority complex in our national psyche. In the end we gave the fearsomely worthy world champions a much harder game than England did and we beat England twice out of three in 2019. For me that is enough to feel our side is at least as good as England’s. The game against an angry All Black side was one too much for our battered squad to cope with and it shouldn’t… Read more »
Congratulations England on doing slightly better against the Springboks than Japan did.
I don’t listen to pundits either before the match, at the interval or at ‘no side’ as our posh neighbours might say. I also watched by games on S4C who has the best commentator, Wyn Gruffydd of all the channels. If it had not been for Biggar’s missed tackle on the try scorer, we would have been in the final. Ymlaen Cymru.
Normally watch with S4C’s excellent commentator (great command of language and clever turn of phrase – Bill mcClaren comes to mind). Woodward has form. 6 Nations a few years ago I turned to BBc during the half time S4C adverts. After a fairly even first half he said that England would come out for the second half and do a job on the Welsh. He must have disappeared pretty quick afterwards because Wales thrashed them that day. The arrogance of the English media is evident to all from outside. Yes the wheels came off the chariot.
So you are as passionate and tunnel visioned as the England fans/media as you are on here to slate?! Some people struggle to grasp the concept that most of the time, their own actions are as poor as the person they are disagreeing with.
Your statement makes no sense. Read my comment again. I only criticised the media. After many years and much observation this is a conclusion that not only myself have come to. Passionate? Tunnel visioned? where’s your evidence. You dont know me; how can you make an unfounded statement. What is this concept you mention. Your phrase makes no sense. I disagreed with no one, I only stated a fact. The English media have only themselves to blame. They continue to build up their teams (long history of this) and then when the goal is not acheived they need someone to… Read more »
Interesting article. Except no quotes that said anything. From Woodward.
100pc right Ifan
English arrogance in rugby is their well known
trait and downfall. SA dominated all aspects of the game and by far desrved their victory
The same can be said for the All Blacks if they had played against England last week the way they played against Wales yesterday, then England would probably not have been in the final. But at the end of the day these are stupid comments to make and people like Clive Woodward should know better and think before putting his mouth into action.
Best team (and rugby) won today, saw no arrogance from the English players (or the Manager!), and they looked no worse than any other side losing at the RWC. (Supporters had no complaints either.) Sympathy to England for having the worst media. Believe what they have to say at your peril, they’re not representative of players or true rugby supporters.
2nd is better than nowhere. Stop being bitter c**ts
Can’t detect any bitterness around here. An understandable feeling of – if only perhaps.
South Africa’s knockout record
Beat Japan by 23 points
Beat Cymru by 3 points
Beat England by 20 points
same old noises from the welsh……I also heard him say only one of the England bench was good enuf to play in the starting 15, I disagree but he is only stating his opinion, is he anti eddie jones or havin a pop…NO…..Trouble is wales cannot stand England full stop and they think the ordinary English fan feels the same hate…they don’t…get over it we got hammered end of, no wonder English players looked out of it..
Why are you getting so upset, so you have decided to not like English teams because of what two mindless pundits said, it is your kind of remarks that cause ill feeling between two great peoples.
Colin. English politicians and media have always looked on Wales as also rans. Look at your English/ Welsh history. Read about ‘The Welsh Not’ & how they tried to ruin our language, but failed. This will no doubt be continued should Brexit happen. The rivalry between our two countries is due to more than an off the cuff comment by a pundit but something engrained in Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish psychy. England played well against New Zealand and I thought they should win the cup. However I was glad we lost to New Zealand that had we been beaten… Read more »
I was listening to the radio yesterday and the English pundits were saying this English team are young enough to defend there title in 4 years time, how arrogant is that ?
Aren’t we all better than this? This is rugby, not soccer and we are all family.
I really don’t give a damn what the media say; the English players knew the cup wasn’t in the bag and they had a fight on their hands, regardless of what people like Dawson and Barnes thought.
Thanks Japan for a great World Cup and well done South Africa. Fantastic performance.
“Aren’t we all better than this?” Well the BBC weren’t. The BBC’s 6pm and 10pm UK wide news programmes last Thursday both had five minutes dedicated to previewing the England South Africa match to be held on Saturday. The Cymru New Zealand match the next day did not get a mention on either newscast. I was a bit surprised given the BBC seems to exist to puff up the “Union”, Britain and things British at every opportunity having British teams in both the final and third place play off would seem to be a real propaganda opportunity to promote the… Read more »
It’s the media that stops all celts supporting the English at anything
My best mate is from North London and I am from the same town as Welsh hooker Ken Owens . Yes we love to banter when England and Wales play each other. but at the same time we still want a home nation to win the World Cup and we also believe that true English and Welsh fans want the best team to win. I think the media always put a negative spin on everything making everyone believe that we fans hate each other. Well I can only say one thing about the English fans and that is they always… Read more »
Listen, Welsh team played like mighty Dragons and in fairness to the English, I tip my hat to your performance against the All Blacks, chwarae teg. Well done Boks, you deserve your win and I’m content with the final results but personally, for me, the real winners are the Japanese, thank you for being incredible hosts and I hope this kindles a special long relationship between the Welsh and the Japanese. You played magnificiently and I loved your anthem, was the first time I heard it and I loved it, very unique!
Well said the Japenese were fantastic hosts played great runnning rygby and even when they went out of the tourament they bowed out with dignity !! They were a shining example of how to behave on and off the pitch xxx da iawn Japan .
Lets all of us follow their pride and passion and celebrate out achievements what ever our placement or medal colour .
I’m English but have lived in Cardiff for 10 years and support Wales. The whole week, all I’ve heard from my English supporting friends is how England will “humiliate” South Africa and how England vs New Zealand was the real final. Today, it’s been all about how much better South Africa played against England and how having a harder game in the semi final meant the players were tired… The constant arrogance just doesn’t connect with me whereas Wales are respectful in both victory and defeat and show real class on and off the pitch. I battled with it for… Read more »
Likewise. Cornish, now living in Wales. I support Wales.
same to you- if we had room we’d welcome anyone who likes fair play and a dose of humility!
croeso i gymru
PB……respect!
I have read nearly all the comments only yours has bad language or do you always speak this way, I am Welsh through and through but think it would have been nice for a northern hemisphere side to be world champions, the problem is as most people don’t like it being rammed down their throats for the next 20yrs as with all pundits do. If an English person wins its England if it’s any any of the other nations its British?
two days before the game i had to switch off talksport , the arrogance was unreal , they were talking about when England came home with the cup should they take it on tour to every major city in the uk and the street parties would be unreal, i am scottish and i couldnt care less if England won or not but the arrogance of the pundits is unreal and we wouldnt hear the end of it , jeez they still go on about 1966
Another idiot who doesn’t know the difference between if and when
Is this the Stewart Barnes who went to Bassaleg School , played for the Welsh Secondary Schools and then opted to play for England – great respect for his opinion!,
That’s the one…balance slightly redressed by Stephen Jones (Sunday Times also) who I believe hails from that well-known London suburb of Risca. Big story yesterday…’Man who lifted a Nation’ hailing Gatland’s achievements…
Cymru is more than a rugby team! We have better things to discuss on here – like independence and (real) football.
a. Spectator sport, devised to stop the working man taking his laudanum and settling down
to a weekend of dreams.
b. I remember N ireland fans celebrating win over Swiss, then going home to Falls Rd, Swiss
fans to Lausanne and Berne…….
c. Sport should be fun, not a life of pain and early death. Exercise is far better for Nation Cymru.
d. Remain United 4 – Brexit Wanderers 0.
I feel sorry for all the English fans( come out the closet when a final appears typical) England played well against New Zealand deserved the win, but as we all know it to there HEADS, nothing wrong with admitting the best team won on the day, but there players and fans think they are invincible ha ha ! and to snub the medals disgrace, typical not very sporting, heroes welcome when they get home hope not, see you all in February see if you can take the title back (6 nations).
Totally agree…particularly Woodward and Guscott seem to have a bee in their bonnets about Wales
England Rugby Union bottle it , 9 times out of 10. Unfortunately, the only time they didn’t they won the World Cup. Glad to see it has become as big a ball and chain to them as 1966 is to the football. And now some so-called ‘expert’ in ‘The Rugby Paper’ has included four (4) England forwards in his team of the tournament…! Shame none of them bothered to turn up yesterday.
I am a taffy living in Cornwall. The English fans and media here are acting if they won.
All the newspaper adverts this morning congratulating and celebrating the England team. What a waste of money ! England have a great team with backup in every position. Imagine what they could achieve with Gatland in charge.
If it makes you feel any better, I’m English and can’t stand the bias of many of the English pundits either. Barnes is a disgrace, as is Inverdale. I think Woodward only meant that the SA team upped their game, played as if they were a different team. Never the less, I sympathise. Too many arrogant comments made.
In all fairness I did expect England to perform better, let’s be honest they didn’t turn up for that game , their arrogance is so bad that because they beat the all blacks they thought they could beat any team , not so, the boks did exactly the same to them as they did to Wales, too strong and too quick in the breakdown and stopped us playing , at least when Wales played them the game could have gone either way in the last 10mins ,as for the Welsh supporting the English, never going to happen , the Welsh… Read more »
Does this respect for the opposition emanate from the manager ?
Obviously I mean disrespect
1/ I never listen to the pundits, unless Wales are playing, so couldn’t care less what Woodward said. 2/ The Boks did not raise their game against England. The same team that narrowly beat Cymru trounced England using broadly similar tactics (one difference: they used their wingers a few times in the second half, and both scored superb tries, but the penalty goal difference would still have been enough). 3/ Team Barrett DID raise their game after the defeat against England, and duly did to Wales what SA did to England 24 hours later. 4/ There were two winning nations… Read more »
I was in England last weekend and every English rugby supporter wanted a England v Wales final. After Saturday and 60 mins into the game on sunday, this could have happened. It would been the 1st time two teams from the northern hemisphere would have played in the world cup final. There was no nastiness, just good banter and expectation. And look at Wales v South Africa and Wales v New Zealand after matches. Both teams shared time with each other and the public after the game. Steve Hansen and Warren Garland even had a beer together. That is what… Read more »
Absolutely disgusted that people have to resort to name calling and blatant disrespect for fellow sports fans (on both sides). Everyone that acts this way needs to grow up and enjoy the sport. Each of the games are different with different variables that can influence both teams and players alike. Enjoy the competition and stop bitching about the other fans/teams as there are far more important things in life to worry about!
England in Rugby World Cup medal snub!
I think that it is disgusting and disrespectful. They were part of a sporting competition and as such should not be throwing their toys out of the pram. What other nationalities would have done that? Maybe explains why they are not many people’s favourite nation !
What rhese players dont realise is the millions of people including children that were watching the coverage. The youngsters will copy these players and think its the thing to do! Disgusting behaviour !
Now lets see which is better coming 2nd or coming 4th? how many 6th nations is worth one world cup?
Lack of class on this thread which reveals most comments are about hatred of the English and not the love of rugby
In the post match interviews, Faf Der Klerk was told that SA had a different game plan from their encounter with Wales the week before. I was pleased to hear him say that they had not changed their game plan. Interviewers trying to get the answers they want to hear. Well done to SA ??
I totally agree. I was supporting England but then thought why should I ?
Our B team did well until a dubious two late penalties cost Wales a win.
Clive Woodward was knighted, for a good reason as these things go. But would he have been knighted if it had been Scotland, Ireland or Wales in the final in 2003? Warren Garland deserves recognition – all these accolades are meaningless but heartfelt – the Freedom of Wales or something? Whatever, he was a balanced commentator, inspiring coach and all round good guy.
I am married to a Welsh girl from the valleys. We are both passionate about our teams (I’m English). When our teams play each other no quarter is asked or given. This does not mean we cannot appreciate the skill of our opponents and give them credit for a well worked move. When not playing each other we support each others team (but perhaps not quite so passionatly). Without being paranoid, it seems to me that some would support any team playing against England. If Scotland beat us in the Six Nations they would count that as a successful tournament,… Read more »
” it seems to me that some would support any team playing against England.” And if they do can you explain what is wrong with that? “The wealth of talent in our islands allows us to put out four world class teams.. ” No – there are two independent and sovereign nation states in “our”(strewth) islands. Both the UK and the Republic of Ireland as of right can field international teams. There are an extra two international rugby teams not because of a wealth of talent but because the game was invented in England and at the beginning the only… Read more »
I am Irish and I think this thread and article sum up why the English (and everyone else) either hates or doesn’t care about the Welsh. I’ve had to live in this small minded little country for years,and you can prattle on about the media but it’s all to do with this vile little country’s hatred of the English,nothing else. Wales are a mediocre team with a terrible fan base,and as for the media,why don’t you read Wales online?
Well done England for getting far. As for Wales,as always I hope you crash and burn in the six nations!