Brexit is a UK Government power grab which will undermine our national voice
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Plaid Cymru, get your head out of the bubble. You are losing votes and potential votes quickly.
Yes you are right, Westminster wont help Wales with the same funding as the EU, and yes EU are better at Welsh language rights….
But you must face the fact that the higher levels of the EU are totally undemocratic – just look how they ignored Catalonia and hurt Greece.
UK State-capitalism has many criticisms that need evaluation (just as ignoring the Welsh periphery), but lets be honest about the EU’s failings and lack of democratic accountability
How come the Catalans and Greeks want to stay in the EU then? Greece and its government has been more than honest about the EU’s failings. They have challenged them, and were famously rebuffed, proving the lack of democracy you hint at. But the people of Greece and their government will not contemplate a Greece outside the EU. And the next opposition party in Greece (conservatives) is even more pro-EU than the left-wing government. Catalonia’s nationalists have also always been consistently pro-EU hence the presence of EU flags and slogan “the next state in Europe” at most rallies. The Catalan… Read more »
Many people who voted leave in Scotland and Wales, turn out to be people, on average, not naturally Plaid Cymru voters – they are people who have done well out of the UK union and reject any SNP, Plaid Cymru radicalism to change their cosy status quo and jobs
Many people who voted REMAIN******* sorry typo
(please edit admin)
I agree with this article almost completely. There are just two things I disagree with: 1. I do not respect the result of the referendum. Prof Simon Wren-Lewis explains this standpoint much better than I could in a few words, here: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/08/22/what-does-respecting-the-referendum-result-mean/ 2. We do not necessarily share a common future. I am fortunate enough to be fluent in a few European languages. And sad as it would be for me to leave Wales, if Brexit goes bad, I will be actively seeking a way out; maybe to Germany, or Scandinavia. I would like to see Plaid being more definite… Read more »
So the EU is more important to you than Wales?
No, my personal future wellbeing, happiness, prosperity and security are more important than Wales though.
There are a lot of people in this situation, including fellow EU citizens from other countries who have made Wales their home.
The people you compare yourself with are going back to their homelands, you are boasting about leaving yours.
I know. What a terrible situation to be in.
All because of lies and misinformation from a few rich people who wanted a tax haven for themselves.
More special pleading. We had the Remain campaign, much better funded than the Leave campaign, telling us daily that Brexit would be far far worse than they’re even saying now that it will be. The UK government paid to post a big fat booklet of Remain propaganda through my door, for heaven’s sake – the Leave campaign wasn’t nearly well-enough financed to do that. I have a particular problem with the argument that we should have a second referendum ‘on the deal’ because we didn’t know what it might be at the time of the first referendum. Of course we… Read more »
Quite simply this: We would be better off outside the UK. We would be worse off outside the EU. The figures are of course debatable for whether or not we would be better off outside the UK, but the thrust of Yes Cymru (and I tend to agree) is that we would. The claim that we would be worse off outside the EU is agreed by all serious economists. Here’s a further argument. Wales, along with Scotland, is by and large a socialist country. We look after our people – or we strive to. We elect Labour time and again.… Read more »
I see your definition of a serious economist is someone who thinks that we’d be worse off outside the EU. By that definition Patrick Minford, by far the most distinguished Welsh economist I can think of, is not a serious economist after all. I’d be interested if you can name any Welsh ones that are. My reason for being a Yes Cymru member is because I’m firmly convinced that Wales can be more prosperous outside both the UK and the EU, but there is a condition on this: a government with sensible – by which I mean right-of-centre – economic… Read more »
I agree with much you say. but making the very rich richer does not help. Joseph Stiglitz who was chief economist at the world bank argues for less inequality as favourable for economy and society. In Wales however can we afford the luxury of squabbling when the colonial power of the English government, be it labour or conservative, is systematically destroying what we have.
Yes, by “serious” I was specifically excluding Patrick Minford. He is well known for his extreme views. It was him who advised the government that the Poll Tax was a good idea. You might be interested in this, from the London School of Economics: http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf Basically, Minford’s projections, as I remember, assume an increase in the wealth gap, and an end to the UK’s service industries. Whilst the rich getting significantly richer might indeed raise GDP, it is not a solution that the vast majority will benefit from, because very many will lose out significantly. If you have looked in… Read more »
Patrick Minford’s economic ideas are not serious. I reject any standpoint based on a horrendous version of neoliberalism-on-steroids.
The lack of independence is a serious issue, how much do we have in Wales. The lies peddled about health in the referendum is unacceptable, but deceit on this issue and others continues. The Welsh Conservatives are saying that “Wales has been at the bottom of the league table of home nations for GVA per head for 20 consecutive years”. This is no thanks to English Government policy. The Welsh Conservatives (@WelshConserve) are saying that “Welsh people are twice as likely as English people to be on NHS waiting list”. But this is because so many elderly and sick English… Read more »
Exactly! Plaid Cymru would be serving Wales better by focusing on how Wales loses out in the here and now due to the English connection rather than scaremongering over what might happen after Brexit. If Brexit undid this token devolution and took us back to a time when Wales was more prosperous, our kids better educated, our NHS performing better, then that would be a good thing for the vast majority of people, but not for those whose careers and reputations are tied up with devolution.. Which is why I suspect so many AMs and others associated with devolution are… Read more »
I don’t think that’s the lesson for Rhun. It’s far too convoluted.
Brexit will be bad for Welsh entrepreneurs, farmers, artists, and push taxes up to support the NHS which dear Svetlovna from Poland is leaving because she doesn’t feel welcome being a nurse hear anymore. Brexit is bad for business. And its success is largely due to apathy and lack of civic involvement and civic education. Why on earth are we in a country where most of its own citizens do not even understand how their own Parliament works? Utterly ridiculous.
When the peoples of Wales realise the real costs of Brexit, the costs to our farmers and manufactured exportsthen the people will want to remain in the European Union. If Wales loses out , there is a power grap by the UK, and worse of all dumped with the UK’s (England’s) problems such as prisoners and nuclear waste…. I feel there will be a feeling of bitterness with the UK’s political elite. Plaid Cymru must effectively communicate with the people of Wales, address issues as they appear to steer this country towards independence. Wales and England is diverging with separate… Read more »
Thank you for an article, that is an excellent contribution to the debate about Brexit. To develop the full potential of Wales and Scotland, it is essential for the UK to move towards a Federal structure, whether we remain in or leave the EU. [I suppose eventually Ulster could opt for an Irish Federation, retaining the Stormont government for the North.]
Rhun uses a lot of emotional appeals to associate in the reader’s mind the EU with European culture, heritage and connections. Meanwhile the actions of the EU clearly indicate its contempt for European values, democracy, and culture. On the one hand it has overseen and encouraged a continuing mass-migration of men from Africa and the Middle East – resulting in an upsurge in crime, rapes and no-go areas. It is currently in the process of punishing Poland and Hungary for being reluctant to take their share of 3rd world economic migrants. And Rhun still pretends a nation can be ‘independent’… Read more »
I see little point in crying over spilt milk. Taking sides on an evenly split issue only limits appeal to less than half of the people. Many of those funding things to manipulate public opinion and feeding the fesire for the break up of the EU are old fashioned opportunists. There are opportunities for us here, but I don’t think we are necessarily well placed to exploit them and my fear is that we will become the exploited – plus ca change. For many Brexit was about getting control back for Britain and Wales was not in the debate. For… Read more »
Most people in the UK have a poor understanding of what the EU is about. The perception of many that it’s a “Common Market” and is or shouldn’t be anything else reveals the level of ignorance. This runs right to the top. In appears that it’s taken six months of negotiations for the Prime Minister and her team of talents to realize that for the EU it’s not all about the money. The logic then follows that the UK EU trade balance where the UK buys more from the EU than the EU does from us is not the winning… Read more »
The notion of a UK power grab, disguises the reality a bit. There is certainly power grabbing going on and being planned, but I doubt the underlying reasons are nationalistic. British nationalism is simply a tool and a way of achieving a new era of different power and control. For who? Ultimately no one is going to appreciate being exploited by opportunists and that is the achilles heel of those trying to do just that. The British empire was created by opportunistic, swashbuckling buccaneers – that instinctive spirit is now rising to the fore again and we are at risk… Read more »
An excellent article/speech from Rhun, and a mixed bag of responses. Thanks for yours, Angharad, and I really hope you do not find yourself compelled to leave Wales. Wales’s problem is that too many people like you do leave. And by the way, no, Patrick Minford is not a serious economist if one has any respect at all for the discipline. It’s a source of continuing embarrassment that he has an academic post in Cardiff.
My personal thoughts on the continued bickering about Brexit is that it is just a shame that someone or group, Plaid or anyone else, could not fill the melstrom of confusion that the English and their Llackies yet again caused and the lost fell into.
Only by working from the streets up will things change and the only people doing that is YesCymru!
So, everyone can go on arguing with and being distracted by the will of the English some of us have work to do!
YesCymru, YesWales and YesIndependence!
Did Blair pay Rhun to write this? His references to his family merely demonstrate how the EU benefits the already-privileged. I like and admire Rhun ap Iorwerth but Plaid Cymru needs to change its current mindset and address the issues of English geriatric immigration, social cleansing from English cities to Welsh towns, unwanted housebuilding in Welsh-speaking areas and the plethora of other battles that need to be fought. If Plaid won’t take up the mantle, it might be time to form a new nationalist party. And as for Brexit, don’t expect the EU to support the cause of independence if… Read more »
It definitely is time for a new nationalist party. Plaid Cymru have completely failed, at every level. And I speak as a former secretary of Wrexham branch (back in the Dafydd Wigley era).
Many of the problems facing Wales – modernisation of infrastructure, dealing with an unsustainable agricultural sector, the crisis in the rural economy, the decline of Welsh in its heartlands, funding health and social care, low productivity and investment – have deep roots.
Hopefully at some stage –sooner rather than later, the debate will move on from sharing fears and fantasies about Brexit to tackling these problems
I remember realizing that the uk would leave the eu should a referendum occur about 10 years ago. I was debating this with a friend, and he was so sure it would never happen. Don’t you remember the drip drip of poison from the likes of the euroffobic press over the years (mail, scum, express)? The ‘banana directive’, the foreign straight cucumber affair; the constant feed o xenoffobic ideas. Britain ( = England) is mentally still at war with a Nazi Germany. So Germany which is a central plank of the eu allows the ‘scum-press’ (little more than adult comics… Read more »