Daily Mail attacks ‘extremist’ Welsh place names petition
The Daily Mail has attacked the petition calling for non-Welsh place names to be scrapped and described the man behind it as a language extremist.
The petition – which had been set up by Mihangel ap Rhisiart via Change.Org – was started in December 2022 and went fairly unnoticed, beginning with only a modest target of 200 signatures.
Since the move to ditch the English version of Brecon Beacons which even saw Downing Street enter the row, the petition started slowing picking up momentum and the target was changed to 1000 signatures.
After hitting the new target, he switched it to an official Senedd petition so it would stand a chance of being debated.
Mihangel, who is a researcher at Cardiff University, said that the petition is in the “spirit of respect for Wales as its own nation” and explained that scrapping non-Welsh place names would acknowledge “cultural oppression historically inflicted on Wales”.
The Mail piece, written by James Tozer, complains: “All English place names could be erased from Wales under a campaign launched by a language extremist.
“Emboldened by the controversial renaming of beauty spots Snowdonia and the Brecon Beacons, branded “bonkers” by critics, language purists now claim the continuing use of non-Welsh place names and spellings highlights the ‘cultural oppression historically inflicted on Wales’.
“Their radical proposal would see the names of the nation’s biggest cities outlawed, including Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Wrexham.
“Instead Cardiff would be officially known just as Caerdydd, Swansea as Abertawe, Newport as Casnewydd and Wrexham as Wrecsam – with all English signs banned.”
Colonialism
Mihangel said: ”I started the petition because I don’t think places in Wales should need two names.
“I do think there is an issue of colonialism, no matter how many centuries it might be since Wales was conquered and then subsequently made legally part of England.
“However, even without this the Welsh place names have existed for a lot longer than the English versions and there is no justification in saying that it is forcing the Welsh language on people because there is no need to be able to understand the meaning of the place names in order to simply say them.
“We don’t think it wrong to expect people to use names like Worcester and Loughborough even then there is no way of knowing from the spelling how they should be pronounced, and I certainly have no idea what they actually mean.
“At least with Welsh there are clear rules of pronunciation which mean the manner of pronouncing Abertawe or Rhydaman is easily known even without an understanding of what they mean.”
Backlash
The decision to revert to the original Welsh name Bannau Brycheiniog for the Brecon Beacons National Park last week has sparked a furious backlash from Tory politicians.
Welsh Secretary David TC Davis described it as “virtue signalling” and “one of the more bonkers ideas I’ve heard in some time”.
Brecon and Radnorshire’s Tory MP Fay Jones questioned the cost and impact of the “symbolic” rebrand and demanded to know why local people were not consulted.
“I’m amazed that a change of name should be imposed on those who live and work in the National Park without any consultation,” she said.
“I am worried that this is symbolic. This is about looking trendy and jumping on a sustainability bandwagon for PR purposes.”
Andrew RT Davies, Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, also posted a bizarre tweet on Saturday morning (22 April) which attempted to link the Daily Mail’s coverage of the petition to the UK Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer.
Under Labour, here in Wales we face many extreme policies.
They are not just dangerous but a major distraction.
It’s why we have far longer NHS waiting lists than England.
A warning of the dangers a Starmer government would do 🥀 pic.twitter.com/TZKEkLB6kD
— Andrew RT Davies (@AndrewRTDavies) April 22, 2023
Earlier in the week Mr Davies said: “Wales has a rich and valuable culture that we should celebrate.
“Many places rightly embrace their Welsh language names, but I do not support change for change’s sake.
“Out of touch Labour ministers in the Senedd are presiding over longer NHS waiting lists than England, slower ambulance response times, smaller pay packets and worse education results.
“Fixing this must be the priority, not pet projects to please their nationalist coalition partners.”
Support our Nation today
For the price of a cup of coffee a month you can help us create an independent, not-for-profit, national news service for the people of Wales, by the people of Wales.
Petition started by a human being is extremist says Daily Mail, the newspaper that wrote “Hurrah For The Blackshirts” and supported Hitler.
Oh dear, we’re getting our country back. They don’t like it up ‘em Mr Mainwaring.
Andrew RT Davies, said: “I do not support change for change’s sake”. Can anyone tell me what this means and where in Wales a name of something was changed “for change’s sake”, beyond of course possibly the Tories changing the name of the Severn Bridge?
Llyn I think you need to get your facts correct. Nobody has changed the name of the original Severn Bridge. The Severn Crossing has had a name change and the bridge is only a small part of the Severn Crossing.
If the Daily Mail attacks it it must be right. I’m Irish/English living in Wales and I love it here. I think using Welsh names is exactly the right thing many others will follow the Welsh example.
Harder for people like myself to pronounce but I’m here in Wales so I’ll have to learn.
We’ll help you Jane, you’ll soon get the gist of it.
I’m part Irish too, and find words like teaghlaigh (household) strange, but my Irish mates help me out.
Good old Daily Fail – shows we’re on the right track ffrindiau.
Teaghlaigh sounds very much like teulu in Cymraeg.
Germans refer to their country as Deutschland.
Both Wales and France refers to Germany as Almaen.
All languages are different words for the same place.
The correct names are those assigned by the locals.
Quite agree. I used to laugh at my French father-in-law trying to pronounce Southampton when he was crossing over to see us in Cymru. He did manage Garndolbenmaen. His daughter is a fluent speaker of Cymraeg however. Whatever country you are in one has a responsibility to respect the language and traditions. Now I am trying to do that in France
We in Wales, Ireland and Scotland have been polite enough to learn how to pronounce English placenames but it seems they are inadequate and incapable when it comes to returning the effort we made. It seems they have a problem with everyone else’s language. As for the Daily Mail, who cares!! The writer gives his opinion and we are expected to think that this is the opinion of every English person. The article was not written by the whole English nation. One man’s opinion is not much is it?
Exactly – I can barely pronounce Cirencester or Worcestershire they should change their names to make it easier for tourists to pronounce
Don’t forget Beaulieu, Marlborough, Dulwich, Chiswick, Greenwich, Frome. These are all place names that should be changed immediately,
And Cholmondely – Chumley
Ratlinghope – Ratchup
This is definitely worth discussion however as with most issues the situation is actually much more complex. Some changes have already taken place Pontypridd used to be called Newbridge Caernarfon was known as Caernarvon Some are just stupid like a Merthyr Tydfil which should be changed to Merthyr Tudfil immediately. (U is an I in Welsh) Some English names are nonsense like Cardiff which is just a corruption of Caerdydd in the first place . Brecon as well. The furore over the National park name change is bizarre as the English name is modern and meaningless. Swansea would be a… Read more »
We could always keep Swansea as having 2 historic names – one Welsh: Abertawe and the other, Old Norse: Sven’s Ey (Sven’s island) – Dim problem!
When was Pontypridd called Newbridge please? Newbridge is a completely different place. Pontypridd was once called Pontytypridd, which, I think, means the bridge of the earthen house.
Yep mate , Pontypridd was called Newbridge in English all through the 1700s to late 1800s https://www.pontypriddtowncouncil.gov.uk/history-of-pontpridd https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Bridge,_Pontypridd In the early 18th century Pontypridd, then known as Pont-y-tŷ-pridd (The bridge of the earthen house),[8] was a tiny hamlet.[9] Pont-y-tŷ-pridd took its name from the original bridge of the same name,[9] however very little is known of that ancient ford with stepping stones, which ran alongside the current Old Bridge,[10] and was used only when the river ran low.[10] Possibly in 1744 or after the bridge was built,[10] Pont-y-tŷ-pridd became known as Newbridge or New Bridge after the William Edwards Bridge.[10][11]… Read more »
Changing names now for major cities would cost an absolute fortune, right at a time when we need every penny for the NHS. Trying to pretend that Wales isn’t bilingual is ridiculous. Both names should remain for now. Having said that – the publicity that has been generated for Bannau Brycheiniog has been fantastic!
It need not cost anything extra, just as signs etc need to be replaced as they age over the years then use just the Welsh version for the new signs
Ammanford is the original name chosen by Welsh people – Rhydaman came later!
Incorrect I’m afraid – Ammanford was originally called Cross Keys after the pub on the square.
I was talking about Swansea also, I think the history of that name is super interesting and has a lot of Welsh history wrapped up in it. Case by case would probably be the way to go with most
Caerdyf is the name in old welsh , would be pronounced ‘cayr divV ’ in English phonetics .
It doesn’t change the fact the English name is meaningless
I can taste the salt in those tears. More please!
“Extremist”???
They should know what that means ……
If the Daily Mail hates you, you are a good person.
If the Daily Mail is against something, it is worth pursuing.
Besides, what the Daily Mail calls ‘extremist’, I call ‘decolonisation’ – just like India, Australia, South Africa, Eswatini and other former victims of the British Empire have also, rightly, done.
Would the Daily Mail call Australia ‘extremist’ for removing the name ‘Ayers Rock’ from Uluru? Or would they call India ‘extremist’ for removing the colonial names Bombay, Calcutta, Cochin, Madras etc.?
Your answers please, Daily Mail and Tory Party …….
There are many examples even here in Cymru where names have been rectified without all this extremist Empire furore. Port Dinorwic was dispatched a quarter of a century ago to be known only be its’ true name of Y Felinheli. History shows that all attempts to eradicate a people, its’ language and its’ culture ultimately fail as it clearly has done here.
Just more chaff to distract a feeble-minded readership away from their failing Brexit project.
Credaf y dylai ‘Wrexham’ troi yn ‘Caer Fantell’, nid yn ‘Wrecsam’. Ceir sawl cofnod o’r enw hyfryd a phersain hwn.
There will always be critics of the Welsh language whether they are inside or outside of Wales. They should not distract Wales from using Welsh only placenames which will save the country money. People will complain at first but they will get used to it.
One criticism of this article it implies Welsh Secretary David TC Davis thinks it was bonkers to change the name when the Daily Mail says he thought it was bonkers “because it implied a link to wood-burning, carbon-emitting blazing beacons – which are not eco-friendly.” Most people would agree with that.
Why don’t the daily mail try and Justify the Welsh Not where a child would have a thrashing for speaking Welsh in school and a plack made out of wood Hung around the children’s neck
Maybe there’s a chance now for the English to admit how arrogant and embarasing the Imperialist attitudes of some of their people to other nations are? The English translations are a blaring (semiotic) sign of the abusive way the ingenious Cymry are treated by the English. If some of the English can’t see their insensitivity to Celtic culture, then I suspect there’s no hope for them, because they simply can’t see themselves – neither do they appear to see the gross inequalities metered out to some of their own people. To sum it up, some of the English are blind… Read more »
Many of them think they don’t have an eccent because they think being English is the norm and that they are the centre of the world
I meant accent
I was in London earlier this week and a woman in the meeting I was at asked me “why are the Welsh making things up just to upset the English”. She was referring to Bannau Brycheiniog, or “that Brecons thing”, as she called it. When I explained matters and said that our language and culture was 2000 years older than hers she called me a “woke fanatic”. I just smiled and laughed. The Brits are rattled.
She seems twp fel c***u (thick as sh*t for those who don’t understand our beautiful language)
I’ve just run your scenario in my head and I congratulate you on your self control and facing down this ignorance but it made me feel so sick and angry, I feel that I would have to have left the room saying nothing for fear that it would turn into something very ugly indeed so I commend you again for your calm response.
Does Tozer translate to Tosser
Perhaps the English educational curriculum should include some basic teaching of Welsh and Scottish Gaelicso that they can understand what the names mean and how they can be pronounced, a taster. Maybe then there will be a petition in England to change Malvern in Worcestershire back to the original Moelfryn.
A very good idea, at least schools in England should teach that the island of Britain is made of three nations and that English is not the only language spoken
I signed. Let the haters know; I am Spartacus.
As somebody brought up in monolingual London decades ago, I rejoice in Welsh road signs and place names. Checking them in my Geriadur Mawr later gives me a window into a world and appreciation continues to grow. I rejoice in the richness and nuance this endows our landscape with.
If the Daily Mail’s against something, I’m all for it.
Da iawn
Never forget that it was the likes of Dafydd Iwan who fought and went to prison for yr iaith Gymraeg. I fail to see precisely what the hell this has got anything to do with anyone in England. They seem to be under the deluded impression that the universe revolves around them and any decision anyone makes in their own country somehow has something to do with England. That’s bad enough and to be expected. But when a non-problem is turned into a problem by the likes of Real Ting and other quisling traitors who arrogantly call themselves Welsh, it… Read more »
I would like to hear the reasons people like James Tozer, and those who support him, are against a country using its own language within its own borders, without sounding
1 condescending,2 imperialist, or 3 down right racist. Does the author have a good reason, or is he one of the three above, or a bit of all three.
Typical Daily Fail! Not to be trusted!
Wel y Djiw, Djiw – mae R2D2 a’r Daily Wail (dim ‘Typo’) wedi bod wrthi ‘to… Well, well, it seems R2D2 and the Daily Wail (not a ‘Typo’) have been at it again…
The Daily Fail showing the typical abusive DARVO technique.
(deny, attack, reverse victim and offender)
When the Daily Mail criticises something – it speaks volumes for the attitudes behind the criticism. Some years ago, I bought the best history book of Britain and Ireland that I have ever read; the author is Norman DAVIES and the title is ‘The Isles, A History’. It is the most in-depth, balanced and informative book by far on the subject . It justly received great praise from all of its many reviewers but one – the Daily Mail’s reviewer, Andrew Roberts. Allow me to quote that review for you here: “This is a dangerous book, written at a dangerous… Read more »
When this kicked off a few days ago, my other half read an article out, and I couldn’t quite understand what was environmentally wrong with a brassiere? All became obvious after reading the article for myself,
This is pure Trumpian politics by Andrew RT Davies. A petition signed by a few people becomes a Welsh Government policy and a warning of what would happen under Keir Starmer?
Here’s a couple of English place names that cause some confusion: Towcester and Magdalen
Use only Welsh names for places in Wales. – Petitions (senedd.wales)
Thanks Daily Mail, I wasn’t aware of this petition but I have signed it and shared it now. What a great piece of (unintentional) publicity. I suppose supporting our own language makes me an extremist as well
These rags do it to stir up ill feeling and hatred towards the Welsh those rags being Daily Mail and Torygraph mainly they poke their noses in the english that is where its not wanted or needed its nothing to do with them THE COUNTRY IS WALES THE LANGUAGE IS WELSH THE PLACE NAMES SHOULD BE WELSH the english nationalists tory voters go into bloody meltdown when they read something like that
Spot on. They have enough bad and controversial news over the border to keep them going but by writing and criticising Welsh issues, that does not really concern them, it takes the attention off them. It’s called “burying bad news”. Also, they know that the Welsh cannot agree on anything between themselves which helps keep the division between countrymen and this helps ensure we will never raise to be an united nation of our own. In other words it’s “stirring the 💩”. Until we can stand united we will never achieve independence and respect and will always be classed as… Read more »
Has ART Davies ever said anything positive about Wales? Bradwr!
To add insult to injury, they call themselves “Welsh Tories”
God forbid the Britons protect British place names. This is the inherent and blatant proof that their ultimate goal is to end British culture, not the perverse British culture created by the Hanoverian monarchs, but rather the culture in which would morph into what is now known as Welsh in English. As long as we are aware of this fact, they can never fully follow through on this despicable plan.
Having only Welsh place names in Cymru is an even better idea if it upsets the Daily mail and the Tories. Da iawn, Cymru am byth 🏴
In that case it is extremist for the Daily Mail to use only English, very narrow minded and limiting to use just one language. I use four languages daily, with Welsh being one of them
What we call places in Wales has nothing to do with people in England, they have enough problems in England to focus on. In other words they can mind their own business as it has nothing to do with them, the world does not revolve around them
I’m surprised that none of the stories in the media has pointed out that “penny van” not only being the highest Peak in Y Bannau but the highest peak in England and South Wales
I was told by a friend who works in the National Park that some visitors and groups (from guess where?) now call Pen y Fan “The Brecon Peak”.
You will also hear/read the area referred to as The Brecons???
Gweld y pwynt ydach chi yn neud ond mae ryw 5 neu 6 o fynyddoedd Lloegr yn uwch na pennyvan Scafell pike a rhai arall ond yr Wyddfa ydi mynydd uchaf Cymru ag Iwerddon a Lloegr a Llanrwst
Sorry my mistake, Pen Y Van will often be referred to as the highest peak in southern Britain,
What a load of fuss over a nation that has a different language to English considering – using that language more. As a country we have a right to promote our language when ever we want to. If some in England don’t like it – that is their problem not ours.
When the hate mail hates something, you know its good. Extremists s those employed by a paper that attacks the basics of our society and pretend to be journalists. Trying to shut down decent opinions and ideas is pretty extreme.
Tory MP Fay Jones “I’m amazed that a change of name should be imposed on those who live and work in the National Park without any consultation,”
What are her views on the ‘Prince of Wales’ bridge? No consultation needed for that name change?
Tory hypocrisy at its finest
Or on passing The Title From Charlie to Bill
Nation Cymru can you forward the comments section on this to The Daily Fail.
The Daily Fail at its anti-Welsh worse. Remember this is a news paper who in the past has been criticised for being openly racist, A bigoted paper that championed Brexit using xenophobic rhetoric . And they call those who want to restore ancient Welsh place changed during conquest as extremists? , lol. Hilarious! 🥴🇬🇧
Remember They supported Moseley and his fascists.
Wales, a saxon word meaning “the land of the foreigner” Says it all really.