Welsh independence ‘on the table’ if relationship between UK nations breaks down says minister
Independence is “on the table” if the relationship between the nations of the UK breaks down to the point where people no longer see a purpose to the Union, according to a Welsh Government cabinet member.
Mick Antoniw, Minister for the Constitution, told Sunday Supplement that “we are facing a situation where the structures of the UK are not fit for purpose”.
He added that Downing Street’s “heads were in the sand” and there was a belief that “if you just wave enough flags the problem goes away – it won’t go away”.
He was asked by presenter Vaughan Roderick whether “from your point of view, and from Welsh Labour’s point of view, independence is on the table, even if it’s not your preferred option?”
Mick Antoniw answered: “I think independence is always on the table if you get to a situation where the relationships between the nations of the UK break down to such an extent that people start questioning what is the purpose of the UK,” he said.
“I remember when the Scottish independence referendum took place in September 2014 the big question was, what is the purpose of the UK? There wasn’t really a very good answer to that, and we’ve got to come up with those particular answers.
“Because what we do recognise is that there’s a very significant degree of inter-dependence we have. Whether it be issues of currency, whether it be issues of trade, whether it be issues of movement.
“We’ve got to cut through to some sort of collective agreement. What are the most important things that we’ve got to do collectively, and what are the things that are best handled as close to the people and as close to communities as possible.
“That really is what the nature of the debate is about.”
Mick Antoniw added that if the UK Government didn’t engage there were “real risks to the long term existence of the United Kingdom”.
“The dilemma is that because central government isn’t tackling, isn’t actually engaging with or responded to the calls for a constitutional convention,” he said.
“If you have a problem, the first thing you have to do is actually recognise that you have a problem. And then you have to engage with all the participants to try and solve that problem.
“And that’s where the dilemma is, and Boris Johnson is the biggest cheerleader for the independence movement, whether it be in Scotland or whether it be in Wales.”
He was later asked by Vaughan Roderick whether he could foresee a situation where Welsh Labour would support something most people would regard as independence.
“Independence for me is about the people of a country being able to choose the sort of governance they want and what their relationship with other countries is,” Mick Antoniw answered.
“Others will say that independence means separating from, or breaking away from, or different forms of economic arrangements.
“For me the key thing is that we have to have a conversation within Wales, to discuss what our future is going to be, to discuss what we think the best relationship is between Wales and the rest of the UK.
“What are those things we really have in common and what are those things we need to reserve to be as close to people as possible, through constitutional change.”
He added that people should stop talking about “independence, or federalism, or devo-max” and start discussing how Wales wants to change and improve things that impact on people’s lives, and what sort of powers and regulations do you need to deliver that”.
Mick Antoniw was also asked whether people really cared about questions relating to the constitution.
“He’s absolutely right about it not being on people’s doorstep when you talk about the constitution in those technical terms, but when you start talking about the policies you want to deliver,” he said.
“For instance, policing isn’t devolved – we think policing should be devolved. But when you start talking to people about how safe is their community and how their community can become safer.
“Suddenly things like how do you engage with the police, what control do you have over the way the police operate, suddenly become more relevant.
“These constitutional questions are really important in terms of our ability to deliver in terms of agriculture, environmental change, the sort of legislation we want.
“And what is recognised across the UK – and across political parties – is that the arrangements we have at the moment aren’t working.”
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It is not “the real risks to the long term existence of the UK” that bother me….. It’s the immediate risk to the existence of Wales. Welsh Labour need to man up because we all remember Gordon Brown’s Jack waving and broken “vow”. Labour can and should lead those that voted for them, the alternative is that we all roll over and disappear as a nation because a bunch of peerage jockeys can smell the ermine and the £300 a day Westminster bung.
If Welsh Labour go for Indy, here is at least one right winger that will back them. Would rather have a socialist Cymru than no Cymru at all!
Agreed. It transcends party politics. We are not safe in the clutches of the Westminster Kleptocrats
Whatever Cymru we get will be ours. Ours to shape, ours to criticise and ours to maintain. From a social democrat liberal type to a right winger – j humphrys, I wholeheartedly agree and applaud your principled view.
Hell, even as a dedicated Plaid Cymru member, I’ll back them all the way if they decide to go for this 👍
I contend, the reason Welsh Labour has not collapsed as Scottish Labour, and now English Labour seem to be doing, is because they’ve embraced the nationalist and socialist cause in a way, neither Scottish or English Labour respectively, have.
So long as Mick Antoniw realises this is not a Welsh Labour bargaining chip it can play and withdraw as it sees fit. This is not something that they lead, or that they even own. They are a Unionist party
This sounds like the “Wales can’t exist without England” argument. A lot of the problems described by Mark are because of the Union, regions in England claim the same problems and some of those are even run by Tories (eg Cornwall). Wales has been exploited by the United Kingdom’s market forces to produce unbalanced economic growth in the Tory heartlands for a couple of generations. Ireland was the poorest country in Europe for decades and then it joined the EU which revolutionised it’s economy and now it has a world leading GDP per Capita. The Senedd has struggled because it… Read more »
If Wales had control of its own economy we could stop this asset stripping, Westminster will do nothing!
You do realise that your misguided notion that independence would inevitably lead to catastrophe is a damning indictment of the capacity, ingenuity and enterprise of your fellow Countymen. And, by extension, yourself. Should it happen, would you stand by and moan as you do in comment sections? Or would you try and make a difference something you are far less able to do currently.
Or will you scurry off across the clawdd to brown up your nose some more. Your ‘betters’ won’t respect you. Dihunwch
Contempt and condescention probably aren’t the best approach. For whatever reason, M R-R dislikes all things left of centre but… you ought to bear in mind that even the most favourable poll concerning independence puts him very firmly in the 60-70% majority.
Sure, you can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic but agressive put-downs achieve nothing more than entrenchment.
Mark Drakeford has already provided an agenda – but no one wants to agree a meeting for its discussion. If St Steffan don’t like the agenda it behoves them to produce a better one.
He is right in one respect – as a people we now need to talk, to discuss, to debate our future. We must decide it, not Westminster.
Today is American Independence Day, so here’s an apposite quote:— When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator… Read more »